DEAR NASH

[nash]

Nash - you are 28 years old which means your collective memory of basketball barely goes back to the early 90's. So please my friend do not talk to me about how the game used to be because you were not there to see it.

I would highly recommend that you read the book THE RIVALRY by John Taylor. Its a great book which details the careers of Russell and Chamberlain and the league and what it was like. Believe me, the league before those two was much rougher and dirtier than it ever has been since. Read it and find out.

Much has been written and talked about the changes wrought by David Stern as commissioner. This is not from me but has been well established in many books. Stern is a believer in the STAR SYSTEM of basketball. He saw the league prosper under Bird and Magic, and then Jordan, and assumed that it was stars that fans would pay to see. The game was changed, the rules were enforced differently, and the game has never been the same since.

How can you judge something if you are not informed about its history?

I guess all that stuff in school about history is irrelevant to me then. I obviously know NOTHING since I didn't witness all those historical events first hand.

I think you've had too much fluoride in your long life.

PS: I had to laugh at your comment about my collective memory of basketball going back to the early 90's.

 

[gideon]

Its a fact of life that if you were only born within the last three decades then you were not there to watch basketball in the decades before that. Thats a simple fact of reality that cannot be denied. And perhaps catching an abridged game or two on ESPN Classic hardly counts. If you did not see people like Russell, Chamberlain, Baylor and others play the game in many games over many years, then you simply cannot evaluate them or compare them. There is nothing mean spirited in that or nothing that is meant to insult anyone. Its just an observation based on reality of the facts of your life and the history of the league. Why do you get so offended.

I can read and see that both Nash and IronFingaz are devoted basketball fans and that is great. But when the discussion centers on the idea of changes in the game and how they benefitted specific players, you are out of your depth if you do not have knowledge of how the game was before those changes were put into effect.

Are my complaints about the tenure of David Stern as commissioner incorrect? Were not rules changed or their enforcement changed to benefit name stars like Michael Jordan and Oneal?

If you have an open mind, and if you want to learn, and not simply think that your generation invented the game, I would urge you to watch games from any previous era - the 50's, 60', 70's and 80's before Jordan. Watch the enforcement of the rules about things like carrying the ball, palming the ball, travelling, the allotted number of steps to the basket before or after a dribble, ---- all these things combined. Watch how a game was called in those eras and watch how the game had to be played because of those rules and how they were enforced.

Then watch the Jordan era and the last 15 years. Has the NBA changed the written rules on those things? Why then can players do things like carry the ball, palm the ball, take a extra step before placing the ball into a dribble or take an extra step after picking up the ball going to the basket? Things that players do routinely in the game today that they never could have done in previous eras?

Have the rules changed?

 

[Bodie The Cursed]

Fundamentals have definately gone down the drain.. Also IMO the game was more physical in the decades from the past.. Players are worth too much these days and those kinds of beatings are no longer allowed..

My roots are not as deep as Gideons, however I have been watching the NBA since the late 70's.. I can see where he is coming from.

In terms of Shaq, he is an interesting case. Do I think he is skilled player?. No.. He relied on the fact he was the biggest and strongest in the game and physically nobody could stop him.. Luckily as a Laker fan we had him during his prime years. That physical bruteness has worn off through a career of not keeping in shape. Now that he cannot endure a full game of physically overpowering his opponents his lack of skills has become glaringly evident. I don't think that he ever really added to his game each year like the other players that are considered some of the game's greatest.

Right now I consider him an anchor on the Suns team. Slowing them down on and off the court as w/ his fat (no pun intended) salary, this is as good as its gunna get.

 

[Bodie The Cursed]

With 2 softies on the horizon Houston can easily hit 21 in a row..

The next 5 are against The Lakers, Boston. New Orleans, Golden State and Phoenix in no particular order..

Can a 21 game win streak possibly be followed by a 5 game losing streak resulting in dropping out of the playoff picture?..

The West is wild indeed.

 

[nash]

Its a fact of life that if you were only born within the last three decades then you were not there to watch basketball in the decades before that. Thats a simple fact of reality that cannot be denied. And perhaps catching an abridged game or two on ESPN Classic hardly counts. If you did not see people like Russell, Chamberlain, Baylor and others play the game in many games over many years, then you simply cannot evaluate them or compare them. There is nothing mean spirited in that or nothing that is meant to insult anyone. Its just an observation based on reality of the facts of your life and the history of the league. Why do you get so offended.

I can read and see that both Nash and IronFingaz are devoted basketball fans and that is great. But when the discussion centers on the idea of changes in the game and how they benefitted specific players, you are out of your depth if you do not have knowledge of how the game was before those changes were put into effect.

Are my complaints about the tenure of David Stern as commissioner incorrect? Were not rules changed or their enforcement changed to benefit name stars like Michael Jordan and Oneal?

If you have an open mind, and if you want to learn, and not simply think that your generation invented the game, I would urge you to watch games from any previous era - the 50's, 60', 70's and 80's before Jordan. Watch the enforcement of the rules about things like carrying the ball, palming the ball, travelling, the allotted number of steps to the basket before or after a dribble, ---- all these things combined. Watch how a game was called in those eras and watch how the game had to be played because of those rules and how they were enforced.

Then watch the Jordan era and the last 15 years. Has the NBA changed the written rules on those things? Why then can players do things like carry the ball, palm the ball, take a extra step before placing the ball into a dribble or take an extra step after picking up the ball going to the basket? Things that players do routinely in the game today that they never could have done in previous eras?

Have the rules changed?

Why do I have to have lived in the 50s 60s and 70s to understand basketball? You definitely know more about the little nuances of the league than I do, but I really do not care to know them either.

You sound like an old disgruntled vet who's mad at the world because they changed something that you've grown up with. Guess what, things change. If you hate it so much, why do you continue to watch the games?

No one ever said that the game of professional basketball HAS to be THIS WAY and REMAIN this way for it to be considered professional. So what if they changed rules to make things more exciting for the fans? Why does that rub you the wrong way? As a fan, im happy with what the league is, I enjoy watching the game that I love and that Ive always loved from the 80s. Anything before then IMO is a thing of the past and to compare it now to then, there is just no point. accept what it is or go watch baseball... You may be older and have more experience watching this game, but IMO for you to be disgruntled about it is rather sad. Not to mention giving the impression to people younger than you that they know nothing about basketball.

Ive never thought of Shaq as a highly skilled player either. The guy is making millions of dollars and I can shoot a way higher free throw percentage than he can. IMO that is ridiculous. Even the crappiest NBA player should be able to out shoot me.

 

[gideon]

I respect the basketball sense of peoople here. I think its great that people hve a love for the game. The point I was making was a simple one.

The enforcement of the rules has changed dramatically under the tenure of David Stern as commissioner. Stern believes strongly in the promotion of the league around a few stars that he sees as carrying the public personna of the league. This is as a direct result of viewing the effect that the Larry Bird - Magic Johnson era had on the league, fans, attendance, publicity, ratings and revenues. When Jordan came along, this emphasis only became more glaring. Then Oneal added to this.

Stern allowed the rules to be intreperted so that the skills of Jordan could be displayed to greater advantage both for him as a player and for the league. The dunk, and more importantly the moves that lead you to the dunk, became all important because of the way fans reacted to that one move. Its interesting that if you read or listen to interviews with players from previous eras, the dunk was never considered as any big deal. If you read comments from Kareem Jabbar, he credits the college ban on the dunk as greatly helping him develop his game and other moves around the basket. But thats another subject.

With Oneal, they finaly had what they thought was the second coming of the type of center that Russell and Chamberlain typified. Of course, he was far from that. But he was very large and very strong and the league allowed him to use that to become a marquee player.

That was my point. Oneal benefitted greatly from an obvious change in how the rules were enforced. His bull in the china shop approach became something that simply was looked at as his style. If you go back to his first year in the league, many on the air commentators and sports writers often mentioned how he used and abused this approach and had to develop other aspects of his game to be a great player. One reason that Rick Barry lost his national commentator role was because he was honest and direct in criticizing things like that. In between the first and second year they brought in Bill Walton who personally coached him and tried to teach him to deal with the double and triple team and it had some success. But Oneals real success came when the leagues refs simply changed their calls on his charges and offensive fouls.

That was my point. Thanks to Bodie for supporting some of that.

Nash - I think basketball is the greatest sport ever invented. I love it and always have. That does not mean I have to love every aspect of it, especially the changes that have been for the worse. There are changes I like such as todays player is far more athletic and in better physical shape than those from previous eras. Many can do things today that athletes from previous eras never dreamed about.

But as Bodie said, lots of fundamental skills have eroded and team play has suffered. The whole point of basketball always was that five players working as a trained unit can beat better individual players who failed to play well as a unit. Sadly, that is in the past. The clear out took care of that. Watching Lebron James single handedly destroy a better Pistons team in the playoffs last year put the period at the end of that sentence.

Nash - I think you know a great deal about the game. I am sorry if I gave you the impression otherwise. But there is always more to learn. For all of us.

 

[IronFingaz]

With 2 softies on the horizon Houston can easily hit 21 in a row..

The next 5 are against The Lakers, Boston. New Orleans, Golden State and Phoenix in no particular order..

Can a 21 game win streak possibly be followed by a 5 game losing streak resulting in dropping out of the playoff picture?..

The West is wild indeed.

They're playing the Hawks, a very good team fighting for a playoff spot. There's a good chance they will stop the Rockets.

 

[gideon]

No doubt that the Rockets are the hottest team right now. However, they do not have Yao Ming in the middle and I honestly believe that the Lakers are the better team. I hope that one is on TV so we all can see it. 19 in a row is an amazing achievement given the difficulty of that for any team plus the last third of it was without their star.

 

[Ryanfromindiana]

Ive never thought of Shaq as a highly skilled player either. The guy is making millions of dollars and I can shoot a way higher free throw percentage than he can. IMO that is ridiculous. Even the crappiest NBA player should be able to out shoot me.

If it makes you feel any better, Wilt was actually a worse free throw shooter than Shaq(career number-wise). He actually started shooting them granny-style. In high school he supposedly would throw the ball against the backboard and dunk it himself forcing a rule-change lol!!!!

 

[nash]

Watching the play by play for Suns vs Grizz. It's a massacre so far. 41 points in the first quarter alone, 31 in the 2nd quarter! Hope they keep going like this in the 2nd half.

 

[Bodie The Cursed]

Watching the play by play for Suns vs Grizz. It's a massacre so far. 41 points in the first quarter alone, 31 in the 2nd quarter! Hope they keep going like this in the 2nd half.

Griz are by far the worst team in the league now after trading Gasol for Kwame..


Next season I'll have to buy season pass from Direct TV..

 

[nash]

Griz are by far the worst team in the league now after trading Gasol for Kwame..


Next season I'll have to buy season pass from Direct TV..

yeah but Im just glad theyre not doing a repeat of the last time they played the Grizz.

Im going to have to buy season pass as well! i hate missing games

 

[Bodie The Cursed]

I have a gut feeling Houston's streak ends in Atl.

Wish I was in Vegas.

 

[amarcord]

 

[nash]

 

[Bodie The Cursed]

20 in a row.. Hope they go 21 into Sundays Laker game on ABC.

 

[Nolocke]

20 in a row.. Hope they go 21 into Sundays Laker game on ABC.

Yes it will be nice to watch them steam roll the Lakers and continue the streak.

 

[nash]

Yes it will be nice to watch them steam roll the Lakers and continue the streak.

:chew:chew:chew

 

[Darth Caedus]

Yes it will be nice to watch them steam roll the Lakers and continue the streak.

I live in LA and I hate the lakers

 

[gideon]

Since only the Lakers franchise has a longer streak than 20 in a row, that Sunday game should be really something. The first 12 were with Yao Ming playing on a broken foot. You have to wonder what this means for the Rockets next year with a healthy Ming. Its really come together both for the Rockets and for the Lakers. Its amazing how fast things can change.