Is there such a thing as free will?

[galmando]

So after consideration, I've come to realise that may initial post was essentially questioning whether or not we live in a deterministic universe or not

I was going to go on to draw up a conclusion that has already been explored in the thought experiment 'Laplace's Demon'

This thought experiment essentially asks you to consider that you were able to have knowledge of the current state of all material/mass/energy in the universe, armed with this knowledge you would theortically be able to predict the next state of the universe, and so and so forth.

This assumes that the universe is entirely ruled by cause and effect, but as Devilo76 has stated, and physists discovered, the Quantum worl doesn't necessarily operate the same as the macroscopic world

In this way, it is entirely feasible that the mind could be a physical entity formed from the material that formed the universe, but not subject to the complete law of physics

Whether that is the case or not remains to be seen.

This is why I am happy to not necessarily 'believe' in anything, if science has taught us one constant above all else, theories and ideas can and have been proven wrong or incomplete.

It's illogical to assume that we have all of the answers and, for me at least, this is where science and faith deviate.

I imagine it's nice to believe that you know the answers, there must be some comfort in that whether you are right or wrong, but I take my own comfort in that i can ask these questions and learn something new that I don't disagree with by default

Man this thread got deep, at least for me. Believe it or not but all of this stuff has been plaguing my mind (physical mind?!) for the past few days, I get to drawn into this stuff, but I do love it.

I don't know the answer to my original quetion, but I have a better understanding.

Big thanks to Devilof76!!!

 

[occulum]

I'm sorry to presume, but from what I've read, it seems as though you assign any phenomenon unexplained by current scientific methods to a spiritual source

That's surely an assumption?

yeah its something thats been going on for years.
People used to think deformities and mental health issues were the work of the devil and those people were "possessed".

 

[devilof76]

You're welcome, galmando. Free will is one of my favorites.

Just to clarify, you may be confusing one point of my position. I'm saying that matter is not the foundation of the universe. There is something more fundamental, which does not behave according to the same laws. However, it would still fall under the rubric of physical law in the sense that physics studies the nature of matter (wherever that inquiry may lead). Causality does rule all, but cause and effect is not strictly deterministic. Free will is just as much ruled by causality, as is consciousness generally. But (big, Scarlet Johanssen but here) consciousness is not matter.

I don't know if that affects your conclusion, but I wanted to make sure what I'm saying is clear.

 

[galmando]

But (big, Scarlet Johanssen but here) consciousness is not matter.

As far as we know, in any case it would still either exists as matter but not have to conform to all laws of physics or it is entirely different substance (not matter as you put it) in which it case it still does not have to conform to all laws of physics

In any case it's still pretty fascinating

 

[devilof76]

Ok, I guess I can leave it at that.

(But if it were matter, I think it would have a hard time doing what it does.)

 

[Blackthornone]

I'm sorry to presume, but from what I've read, it seems as though you assign any phenomenon unexplained by current scientific methods to a spiritual source

That's surely an assumption?

The only way you can have free will is if you chose where you would be at some point in the past. Its logical. If you have no choice in the beginning, it follows that you have no real free will at any point in the future in which you have limited choices.

However, if you did choose where you would be, despite having limited choices where you are, you still can have free will, since those choices you have are determined by where you are, which is where you chose to be.
That way, you can have absolute free will, thus having real free will, even though you don't have it at the present, because your lack of free will in the present is a direct result of you using it in the past.

A relative number of choices, limited choice is not FREE will.
The freedom of will is determined by how many options one has. If some options were NEVER possible at any point, regardless of what YOU did, then you don't have free will.

The only one who can have free will at all times is God.

 

[devilof76]

Horse****.

 

[occulum]

 

[Blackthornone]

Horse****.

Your definition of free will is relative. Mine is absolute. The only real definition of something is an absolute one.

The only way I can see that someone could make a decision before they were born is to have a soul that made that decision.
Perhaps you have a better explanation of how someone can choose where they are born. Where you are born is a choice just like any other. It is just as much a choice as deciding to move to a new country or a city.
If you don't have that choice then you don't really have choice.

 

[galmando]

Your definition of free will is relative. Mine is absolute. The only real definition of something is an absolute one.

The only way I can see that someone could make a decision before they were born is to have a soul that made that decision.
Perhaps you have a better explanation of how someone can choose where they are born. Where you are born is a choice just like any other. It is just as much a choice as deciding to move to a new country or a city.
If you don't have that choice then you don't really have choice.

I don't think I follow

Are you suggesting that the mind is in fact the soul, and that you exist before you are born and that you choose where you are born?

 

[Blackthornone]

I don't think I follow

Are you suggesting that the mind is in fact the soul, and that you exist before you are born and that you choose where you are born?

Correct.
The brain is just the hardware. The soul is the software.

 

[devilof76]

Your definition of free will is relative. Mine is absolute. The only real definition of something is an absolute one.

The only way I can see that someone could make a decision before they were born is to have a soul that made that decision.
Perhaps you have a better explanation of how someone can choose where they are born. Where you are born is a choice just like any other. It is just as much a choice as deciding to move to a new country or a city.
If you don't have that choice then you don't really have choice.

That's because you're thick as a brick.

Try answering the arguments that were already presented against these claims you continue to repeat like a broken record, or shut up.

 

[galmando]

Correct.
The brain is just the hardware. The soul is the software.

But you're basing your entire point on the belief that there is a soul and a creator

There appears to be no room for suggestion

 

[Blackthornone]

But you're basing your entire point on the belief that there is a soul and a creator

There appears to be no room for suggestion

I'm basing the idea of us having free will on having an identity that preceded our physical bodies. God is neither here nor there.

On the other hand, if consciousness was derived from matter, I could accept that we had no free will. Having free will without being to choose the body you are born into makes no sense.
Free will with soul makes sense. An no free will without it also makes sense, because both ideas are consistent.

The idea of free will without being able to choose the body you are born into is inconsistent.

 

[devilof76]

How can you have an identity that precedes your birth?

More to the point, how can you have identity prior to your existence (since there is no evidence at all to suppose one exists before they are born)?

 

[devilof76]

Ok, so logic (circular, in this case) is important, but evidence, not so much. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Centurion]

 

[devilof76]

Neo, you're a sucker.

 

[Centurion]

 

[BadMoon]

Neo, you're a sucker.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PkFyGNjaQ8k&desktop_uri=/watch?v=PkFyGNjaQ8k