look so old to young eyes do i.....

[KAOSINLA]

Regarding the training in ESB, I remember when OWK warns Luke that he couldn't help him if he left. Luke responded with "I understand." Yoda then had a surprised facial expression to this, as though Luke had advanced his training by having a clearer mind, more thought out judgement and reasoning, and has accepted responsbility for his actions. Something that Anakin didn't show or do in his training.

.....Just a thought

 

[Jedi_Knight]

It wasn't so much about the physical training. Luke had what he needed. What Yoda and Obi were worried about was his mental ability to stay on the light side. So when he came back to Yoda they saw he was stronger mentally than what they thought so his training was complete.

 

[devastator's balls]

bloody good point!!..also i think if mace had let anakin come with him and the other jedi to arrest palpitine in revenge of the sith then anakin might have not have jumped to the darkside as he would have seen palpatine for what he really was!! i mean he alrady knew that he was a sith lord.

Hahaha! I had that same idea, and I told to my brother when I watched that part. I totally agree that Mace should have let Anakin go with them to see him for what he really was. It's totally what Automaton said earlier in the thread, that the Jedi be totally havin those blinders on.

Anakin had 2 choices to make back to back. The first choice was either the Jedi or Sideous. The second choice was Mace/Jedi or Sideous/Padme.

After he discoverd Palphatine (sp?) was Sideous, he still chose to do the right thing which was report him to Mace. And since Mace did not allow him to go, he was forced (in a way) to make his second choice which was to either allow Mace to kill sideous, or allow sideous to live to save Padme. And of course he choose Padme, other wise there would be no OT.

So if Mace just let him go in the first place, things might have shaped up differently. Or not, cuz there's always that argument that sideous was playing possum. :emperor

What you guys think?

 

[Agent0028]

Good point Jedi_Knight, I like that theory.

If Sidious wasn't playing opossum then I agree the empire would never have risen. If he was playing weak then there are two possibilities. One is that Anakin and Mace working together could have stopped Palpatine, the other is that Palpatine would have killed both and the Empire would have risen anyway. Palps would still claim the jedi attempted to assasinate him and send out order 66. He just wouldn't have Vader as an attack dog. Which begs the question...how would Palpatine be over thrown?

 

[MISFIT]

very good points guys.
but u gotta remeber that anakin lost all hope when sidious told him he had killed padame therefore totally completing the transition to the darkside.and padame only died from a broken heart she lost the will to live.
if u rember in rotj when luke gives himself in to vader we see a brief moment of regret in vader as he says "it is to late for me my son".

personally i think mace and anakin woulda whipped the ^^^^e outta sidious!!..then we might have seen another sith lord..maybe an even more powerful one..maybe the return of darth bane???..
ohhh the mind boggles with thoughts of all this!!!
imagin anakin teaching luke and the others in the ways of the jedi!!!..frickin sick!!

 

[tylerdurden]

i know this is all theory and conjecture so there's no "right" answer/opinion. so here's my 2cents'...

NO WAY in heck anakin and mace could've defeated sidious, if even THE most powerful jedi of all, yoda, could barely hold his own against sidious. by his own admission, yoda got his ass kicked by sidious.

and as powerful as both anakin and mace were, they're simply weren't in the same league as yoda, let alone sidious. so sidious was definitely playing possum to appear as if he was the victim of jedi ruthlessness.

btw, i absolutely HATED the lightsaber duel between mace and sidious. it was very poorly executed. it was so obvious that neither samuel l. jackson nor ian mcdiarmid were comfortable with the complexities of duelling. so they resorted to close-ups, quick cuts and stunt doubles. what a major disappointment. can't say i blame them though. physical acting and doing your own stunts are always hard, and u need a certain degree of god-given athletic ability to pull it off. ewan and hayden had it in spades though. they always looked very natural in the lightsaber scenes. and of course, ray park's the best of them all! he's da man! :maul

 

[the dude person]

Good point Jedi_Knight, I like that theory.

If Sidious wasn't playing opossum then I agree the empire would never have risen. If he was playing weak then there are two possibilities. One is that Anakin and Mace working together could have stopped Palpatine, the other is that Palpatine would have killed both and the Empire would have risen anyway. Palps would still claim the jedi attempted to assasinate him and send out order 66. He just wouldn't have Vader as an attack dog. Which begs the question...how would Palpatine be over thrown?

Haha... over thrown. Into an energy pit thingy.

 

[Agent0028]

I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that pun. Nice catch.

I've never believed that its possible to judge who would win a lightsaber fight based on who is the better blade master. Even though Sidious beat Yoda its possible Mace could have beaten Sidious. After all Yoda had learned of alot of Jedi's deaths so I imagine that had some effect on his concentration. Plus if you have two duelists of great skill (Anakin and Mace) its difficult to tell how they would have fared against Sidious together. Maybe their two level of skills combined make them better than Yoda. Of course its all speculation, I bet we've put alot more thought into this than Lucas did.

 

[the dude person]

i know this is all theory and conjecture so there's no "right" answer/opinion. so here's my 2cents'...

NO WAY in heck anakin and mace could've defeated sidious, if even THE most powerful jedi of all, yoda, could barely hold his own against sidious. by his own admission, yoda got his ass kicked by sidious.

and as powerful as both anakin and mace were, they're simply weren't in the same league as yoda, let alone sidious. so sidious was definitely playing possum to appear as if he was the victim of jedi ruthlessness.

btw, i absolutely HATED the lightsaber duel between mace and sidious. it was very poorly executed. it was so obvious that neither samuel l. jackson nor ian mcdiarmid were comfortable with the complexities of duelling. so they resorted to close-ups, quick cuts and stunt doubles. what a major disappointment. can't say i blame them though. physical acting and doing your own stunts are always hard, and u need a certain degree of god-given athletic ability to pull it off. ewan and hayden had it in spades though. they always looked very natural in the lightsaber scenes. and of course, ray park's the best of them all! he's da man! :maul

For Ian McDiarmid, they had to use a stunt double for some shots. He was almost 40 when he was Palpatine in Return of the Jedi(1983), and he was in ROTS 22 years later... so he would have been about 60. He was old. He couldn't move around so much anymore. I don't think they used doubles for Mace tho...

Ray Parks is god of awesomeness! :maul

 

[Darth Mitchell]

NO WAY in heck anakin and mace could've defeated sidious, if even THE most powerful jedi of all, yoda, could barely hold his own against sidious. by his own admission, yoda got his ass kicked by sidious.

and as powerful as both anakin and mace were, they're simply weren't in the same league as yoda, let alone sidious. so sidious was definitely playing possum to appear as if he was the victim of jedi ruthlessness.

If I understand you correctly you say that Anakin and Mace couldn't kill Palpatine? Imagen... Everything goes as it is in the movie but Anakin doesn't cut off Mace's hand, then Palpatine would've been killed. And even IF he stopped Mace, Anakin was there to kill Palpatine, with his saber or force push him out of the window
I think that Palpatine knew that Anakin would save him, but if Anakin wouldn't do it, he was to late to react on Mace's attack

 

[Agent0028]

That's working the assumption that Mace had Palpatine defeated and Palpatine wasn't faking. Personally I think it was a ploy to help turn Anakin.

 

[MISFIT]

bloody good point!!!..palpatine was devious..i mean he killed darth plageus in his sleep!!

 

[Outer_Rim]

Under my point of view, Mace won the lightsaber part of the duel but Palpatine was far from defeated. During the lightning attack he clearly toyed with Mace and Anakin, first changing Mace´s mind about arresting him and at the same time making sure Anakin knows he needs him to save Padmé. Then Palpatine played the I am to weak and tired trick when de wasn´t at all to force Anakin hand. It isn´t the case the prophecy protects Palpatine, it is only that Palpatine always win in one way or another.

 

[tylerdurden]

I've never believed that its possible to judge who would win a lightsaber fight based on who is the better blade master. Even though Sidious beat Yoda its possible Mace could have beaten Sidious.

actually i was referring to the overall skill level of a jedi/sith, not just their swordsmanship. their overall knowledge and mastery of the force. so even if mace and anakin were to combine their abilities, they couldn't possibly hope to match a dude who's so powerful, he can create life at will... assuming u buy the theory (like i do) that sidious learned to control midichlorians from darth plagueis and created anakin... which is to me a very interesting dynamic. this makes sidious anakin's dad and luke's grandpa! which makes the whole saga even MORE of a skywalker family story. that's one thing i really liked about epIII: that oh-so-subtle but mindblowing revelation...

If I understand you correctly you say that Anakin and Mace couldn't kill Palpatine? Imagen... Everything goes as it is in the movie but Anakin doesn't cut off Mace's hand, then Palpatine would've been killed. And even IF he stopped Mace, Anakin was there to kill Palpatine, with his saber or force push him out of the window
I think that Palpatine knew that Anakin would save him, but if Anakin wouldn't do it, he was to late to react on Mace's attack

Under my point of view, Mace won the lightsaber part of the duel but Palpatine was far from defeated. Then Palpatine played the I am to weak and tired trick when de wasn´t at all to force Anakin hand.

outer rim's and agent0028's explanations echoes my take on this, darth mitchell. sidious was faking it. in fact, he may very well have lost the lightsaber duel on purpose. he's a sneaky basterd.

 

[tylerdurden]

For Ian McDiarmid, they had to use a stunt double for some shots. He was almost 40 when he was Palpatine in Return of the Jedi(1983), and he was in ROTS 22 years later... so he would have been about 60. He was old. He couldn't move around so much anymore. I don't think they used doubles for Mace tho...

there were indeed a number of scenes that a real/digital stunt double was used for mcdiarmid. as u pointed out, it's necessary cos he's kinda old now.

but the close-up scenes required him to do his own lightsaber work, and he just looked plain uncomfortable and unwieldy with the weapon. same with sam jackson. the whole duel suffered due to the actors' limitations. this is one of the few cases where i would've preferred replacing the 2 actors with expert swordsmen/martial artists, if only in a few key wide-angle shots. imagine the kind of awesome bad-assery (not a real word but who cares) we would've gotten on screen. the duel could've been as epic as the 3-way fight with maul in epI.

 

[MISFIT]

tylerdurden: i agree bro it woulda looked uber cool if the actors could move like hayden and ewan did in there lightsaber battle!!. plus i thougt ikinda sucked that kit fisto was killed so easily by palpatine!!,i imean in the comics he is a badass!

 

[tylerdurden]

agree. i had a soft spot for kit fisto.

in fact, i felt that ALL the jedi who got exterminated under order66 went out like weaklings. i understand they were overwhelmed by the clone troops but couldn't lucas have shown them going down fighting in a bad-ass way, killing a good amount of troops before being totally outmatched by their sheer numbers. they were killed way too easily.

 

[Agent0028]

agree. i had a soft spot for kit fisto.

in fact, i felt that ALL the jedi who got exterminated under order66 went out like weaklings. i understand they were overwhelmed by the clone troops but couldn't lucas have shown them going down fighting in a bad-ass way, killing a good amount of troops before being totally outmatched by their sheer numbers. they were killed way too easily.

I agree, they needed to be overcome by sheer force as opposed to the clones getting the drop on them. They're jedi, they all should have sensed it coming, not just Ki Adi Mundi.

I've never really decided if I buy the theory that Sidious created Anakin. It doesn't make any sense to me why he would create him to only let him become a slave on a desert planet. I'm sure there is an explanation for it, but it doesn't really appeal to me personally.

I can see your point about over all mastery of the Force, but I still think its possible that Anakin and Mace could have defeated Sidious. I also believe Yoda and Obi-Wan working together might have been able to defeat Sidious. Splitting up made no sense at all.

 

[MISFIT]

very true together they woulda whooped his ass!!..
and i TOTALLY agree with the jedi falling so easily i mean they could force blasted some stromtoopers in the air before being overwhealmed or lightsabered there assess before being overcome by them.
was a shame they wernt used properly.

 

[tylerdurden]

I've never really decided if I buy the theory that Sidious created Anakin. It doesn't make any sense to me why he would create him to only let him become a slave on a desert planet. I'm sure there is an explanation for it, but it doesn't really appeal to me personally.

there seems to be quite a number of people who don't buy that theory or didn't even "get" it. it was pretty subtle after all. which is precisely what i liked. i mean, lucas isn't exactly renowned for his subtlety in storytelling, so to me this was a very pleasant surprise.

the way i see it, sidious purposely placed his "son" anakin on tatooine as a slave because he wanted to sow in him the seeds of anger, discontent, hatred, fear---basically all the negative emotions required of a sith. and sidious needed to achieve that secretly, without his personal involvement, or else anakin would've rebelled against him.

so he left anakin to develop independently, then from there, he let destiny take its course...

besides, a guy like sidious wouldn't exactly make a good parent would he? after all, he was too busy devising and carrying out his evil plans to rule the galaxy. anakin would've been a latchkey kid.

and i TOTALLY agree with the jedi falling so easily i mean they could force blasted some stromtoopers in the air before being overwhealmed or lightsabered there assess before being overcome by them.
was a shame they wernt used properly.

yeah the force push wasn't employed by even one of the so-called jedi during order66. the funniest thing is that the jedi who put up the strongest fight wasn't even a jedi yet. when bail organa landed on the platform at the jedi temple, a youngling was being attacked---the kid looked like he was holding his own for a good long while before getting overwhelmed. put all the elder jedi to shame. but i blame lucas, cos he was obviously in a hurry to kill off all the jedi cos they weren't the main part of the story...