look so old to young eyes do i.....

[Lordscum]

agree. i had a soft spot for kit fisto.

in fact, i felt that ALL the jedi who got exterminated under order66 went out like weaklings. i understand they were overwhelmed by the clone troops but couldn't lucas have shown them going down fighting in a bad-ass way, killing a good amount of troops before being totally outmatched by their sheer numbers. they were killed way too easily.

Thats Lucas for you! He has alot of great build up for these characters and then takes the easy way out as has them go down like chumps ! There was all of this build up for Boba Fett and he's barely in ESB and goes down like a chump in Jedi , The same with the Jedi in ROTS. You'd think they'd see it coming.

Thats why I'm so glad that the Clone Wars are George Lucas free!

As far as ESB and the time Han , Leia , Chewie ect are being chased by the Empire and Luke is training on Dagobah , I buy the 6 month theory over all but wow , wearing the same clothes for 6 months in the swamp
or on a ship sure would start to stink or take on a rather dirty , ratty appearance.

 

[Darthrazz]

agree. i had a soft spot for kit fisto.

in fact, i felt that ALL the jedi who got exterminated under order66 went out like weaklings. i understand they were overwhelmed by the clone troops but couldn't lucas have shown them going down fighting in a bad-ass way, killing a good amount of troops before being totally outmatched by their sheer numbers. they were killed way too easily.

Well....there was one Jedi, actually a Padawan, who put up a decent fight and he just happened to be Lucas' son!!

 

[Mad Old Lu]

i know this is all theory and conjecture so there's no "right" answer/opinion. so here's my 2cents'...

NO WAY in heck anakin and mace could've defeated sidious, if even THE most powerful jedi of all, yoda, could barely hold his own against sidious. by his own admission, yoda got his ass kicked by sidious.

and as powerful as both anakin and mace were, they're simply weren't in the same league as yoda, let alone sidious. so sidious was definitely playing possum to appear as if he was the victim of jedi ruthlessness.

btw, i absolutely HATED the lightsaber duel between mace and sidious. it was very poorly executed. it was so obvious that neither samuel l. jackson nor ian mcdiarmid were comfortable with the complexities of duelling. so they resorted to close-ups, quick cuts and stunt doubles. what a major disappointment. can't say i blame them though. physical acting and doing your own stunts are always hard, and u need a certain degree of god-given athletic ability to pull it off. ewan and hayden had it in spades though. they always looked very natural in the lightsaber scenes. and of course, ray park's the best of them all! he's da man! :maul

For Ian McDiarmid, they had to use a stunt double for some shots. He was almost 40 when he was Palpatine in Return of the Jedi(1983), and he was in ROTS 22 years later... so he would have been about 60. He was old. He couldn't move around so much anymore. I don't think they used doubles for Mace tho...

Ray Parks is god of awesomeness! :maul

there were indeed a number of scenes that a real/digital stunt double was used for mcdiarmid. as u pointed out, it's necessary cos he's kinda old now.

but the close-up scenes required him to do his own lightsaber work, and he just looked plain uncomfortable and unwieldy with the weapon. same with sam jackson. the whole duel suffered due to the actors' limitations. this is one of the few cases where i would've preferred replacing the 2 actors with expert swordsmen/martial artists, if only in a few key wide-angle shots. imagine the kind of awesome bad-assery (not a real word but who cares) we would've gotten on screen. the duel could've been as epic as the 3-way fight with maul in epI.

In the DVD documentary for Episode III, they explain the scene. Apparently, the stunt coordinator had the whole scene planned out, using stunt doubles, creating an epic battle of the Jedis. But that day when they were ready to shoot, Lucas came in and said that he wanted Ian to do all the shots because he wanted to show Ian really doing it. The stunt coordinator was a little annoyed, but took it in stride, saying something like, "I guess we must have misunderstood the directions..." Even Ian looked a little uncomfortable with the news that he would have to do the work. So that's how we got such a lame lame lame fight. The scene always bothered me because it was SUPPOSED to be EPIC, but instead we just got Ian limply waving his lightsaber around, and the Jedis practically walking into the blade! It played out ridiculously (like a dad playing with his 4 year old and pretending to be beaten by the kid!) and I never understood why Lucas did not concede to use stunt doubles--it would have worked fine since Ian had a hood and already some face prosthetics that could have hidden the stuntman's face.

And yeah, I agree that Sidious was playing possum and could have escaped. He might've been genuinely hurt by the force lightning, but not enough to be defeated. And I also think the implication was that Sidious created Anakin with the midis.

 

[tylerdurden]

Well....there was one Jedi, actually a Padawan, who put up a decent fight and he just happened to be Lucas' son!!

yep, that's the youngling i mentioned in my earlier post...

wasn't lucas' daughter in it as well?---in the opera scene. she was playing a twi'lek if i remember correctly. and lucas himself appeared as some funny blue dude.

In the DVD documentary for Episode III, they explain the scene. Apparently, the stunt coordinator had the whole scene planned out, using stunt doubles, creating an epic battle of the Jedis. But that day when they were ready to shoot, Lucas came in and said that he wanted Ian to do all the shots because he wanted to show Ian really doing it. The stunt coordinator was a little annoyed, but took it in stride, saying something like, "I guess we must have misunderstood the directions..." Even Ian looked a little uncomfortable with the news that he would have to do the work. So that's how we got such a lame lame lame fight. The scene always bothered me because it was SUPPOSED to be EPIC, but instead we just got Ian limply waving his lightsaber around, and the Jedis practically walking into the blade! It played out ridiculously (like a dad playing with his 4 year old and pretending to be beaten by the kid!) and I never understood why Lucas did not concede to use stunt doubles--it would have worked fine since Ian had a hood and already some face prosthetics that could have hidden the stuntman's face.

hahaha, poor stunt coordinator. i'd be pissed too. lucas had the right intention by showing the actor's face in the fight scenes, but he exercised very poor judgement by not knowing WHEN to let the pros take over (stunt performers and fight choreographers). sigh. oh well. chalk that up to the long list of "what could have been"...

 

[MISFIT]

still think that darth maul was killed off to quick!!!..he was a kick ass charcter would have bein sooo cool to see him in episode 2 and 3. woulda bein crazy if anakin killed maul to take his place by palpatine's side. think lucas got that wrong!

 

[Agent0028]

Killing off Maul was a bad idea, it would have been awesome for him to be the prequel Vader.

 

[tylerdurden]

although i feel maul is a pretty one-dimensional character, i kinda agree with u guys.

i always felt it would've been much better if maul had lived, and been the main henchman antagonist in episodes 2 n 3. forget about grevious and count dooku, who weren't even mildly menacing. maul could've been used as a solid plot point, serving as a real thorn in the jedi's side, while drawing out the anger and agression in anakin, further nudging him to the edge of the dark side. even obi-wan, having lost his own mentor qui-gon to maul, would be too blinded by thoughts of vengeance to stop anakin. another oversight that added to his failure as anakin's mentor. and all this is part of sidious' plan.

at least, that's how i see it.

 

[Darthrazz]

I think I read somewhere that Lucas didn't want Maul to become more popular than Vader, but he would have really changed the Dynamic of the trilogy had he lived.

 

[Agent0028]

No way Maul would be more popular than Vader.

 

[the dude person]

In the DVD documentary for Episode III, they explain the scene. Apparently, the stunt coordinator had the whole scene planned out, using stunt doubles, creating an epic battle of the Jedis. But that day when they were ready to shoot, Lucas came in and said that he wanted Ian to do all the shots because he wanted to show Ian really doing it. The stunt coordinator was a little annoyed, but took it in stride, saying something like, "I guess we must have misunderstood the directions..." Even Ian looked a little uncomfortable with the news that he would have to do the work. So that's how we got such a lame lame lame fight. The scene always bothered me because it was SUPPOSED to be EPIC, but instead we just got Ian limply waving his lightsaber around, and the Jedis practically walking into the blade! It played out ridiculously (like a dad playing with his 4 year old and pretending to be beaten by the kid!) and I never understood why Lucas did not concede to use stunt doubles--it would have worked fine since Ian had a hood and already some face prosthetics that could have hidden the stuntman's face.
And yeah, I agree that Sidious was playing possum and could have escaped. He might've been genuinely hurt by the force lightning, but not enough to be defeated. And I also think the implication was that Sidious created Anakin with the midis.

No, no hoods to hide people's faces! In other parts of the DVD documentary it shows how some scenes on Mustafar needed stunt doubles for Anakin for things he "just couldn't do", so they used a double for some parts. And the footage is in the movie. With his face showing clearly.

How?

They took full 3D facial scans of H. C. (Anakin) and inserted them into scenes where the stuntman's face was visible. They could have replaced their entire faces seamlessly. No one would notice. (Seriously, did you stop at the mustafar battle when Anakin was climbing up the thingy that was tipping over and say "wait a sec, that looks like a stunt double with a photorealistic 3D model of Anakin's face on it!" ? )

 

[Agent0028]

Stunt doubles have been used in movies for years with people not really noticing, I doubt they even really need the scans if its done right.

 

[tylerdurden]

yeah, that's true. a good example is indiana jones. vic armstrong used to stand in for harrison ford in many of the stunt scenes, even in medium shots where u could kinda see the face. many folks agreed that he could easily pass off for ford from certain angles. ford himself once famously joked: "vic, if you ever learn to talk, i'm in deep trouble."

 

[Mad Old Lu]

It does seem like a very stubborn and misguided decision on Lucas's part to insist Ian do all the work for that scene. You all are absolutely correct about not even needing to hide the stuntman's face with digital technology and all, although maybe the budget might have something to do with it. But even then, there are plenty of old-fashioned, cheap ways to effectively obscure the stuntman's face. It really diminished the impact of the scene.

 

[the dude person]

Stunt doubles have been used in movies for years with people not really noticing, I doubt they even really need the scans if its done right.

Yeah, but they could have had TOTAL freedom with this one, heck, they could start close up on a real actor's face, zoom out, and seamlessly transition to stunt double who could start doing the action, then seamlessly transition to full-digital for flippy-stuff, then back.... all in one shot...

They could have done ANYTHING with it and made it look like it really was Jackson and McDiarmid doing everything.... Did you guys ever watch the Ep II DVD commentary thingy with Dooku flipping down to fight Yoda? In the film it looks like he jumps in from high up off screen, lands, and proceeds to fight yoda. When you watch how they made it, you see footage with just the background and no people, then a blue square for reference comes down tracking where Dooku should be in mid-air, then it "lands", then real Dooku pops up and starts swinging his saber around some. Then they replaced the square with a full 3D model of Dooku complete with flapping clothes as he falls, then lands, then you can't even tell when the real footage starts...

I guess maybe ILM was getting tired and needed a day off...

 

[Manticore72c]

yeah, that's true. a good example is indiana jones. vic armstrong used to stand in for harrison ford in many of the stunt scenes, even in medium shots where u could kinda see the face. many folks agreed that he could easily pass off for ford from certain angles. ford himself once famously joked: "vic, if you ever learn to talk, i'm in deep trouble."

I didn't know who Vic Armstrong was till you mentioned it. I looked him up out of curiosity and was reading about him , Harrison Ford Indy and movies he has worked on, it was really interesting. So just wanted to say cheers!

 

[tylerdurden]

Did you guys ever watch the Ep II DVD commentary thingy with Dooku flipping down to fight Yoda?

the facial replacement effects on epII were just awful. i'm referring to the scene where anakin was duelling dooku. they superimposed christopher lee's face onto the stunt performer's body and it showed, really badly. maybe that's part of the reason why lucas didn't want to repeat that with mcdiarmid and sam jackson in epIII.

however i believe it's a mistake easily avoided. i agree with u that for epIII they could've used a combination: close-up reaction shots using the actual actors, medium shots with stand-ins, and long shots with expert stunt performers, with a few digital stunt doubles added here and there.

I didn't know who Vic Armstrong was till you mentioned it. I looked him up out of curiosity and was reading about him , Harrison Ford Indy and movies he has worked on, it was really interesting. So just wanted to say cheers!

no worries, mate.

btw, vic armstrong's son is now a well-known stuntman and stunt coordinator in his own right.

 

[devastator's balls]

yeah, that's true. a good example is indiana jones. vic armstrong used to stand in for harrison ford in many of the stunt scenes, even in medium shots where u could kinda see the face. many folks agreed that he could easily pass off for ford from certain angles. ford himself once famously joked: "vic, if you ever learn to talk, i'm in deep trouble."

Aww man i missed out on some good Jedi discussions! But yea anyway, tyler is right, especially in Temple of Doom. Harrison herniated his back in the fight scene in his room when indy is contemplating whether or not to go to willie's room. So the fight scene in the digging area, against the head guard (Pat Roach), that was pretty much Vic Armstrong the whole fight. Harrison at least made it back for the bridge scene at least.

 

[devastator's balls]

Oh yea and to add to what tyler's post about Harrison joking around, Harrison and Vic resembled each so much that sometimes people would mistake Vic for Harrison, but never the other way around.

 

[tylerdurden]

Aww man i missed out on some good Jedi discussions! But yea anyway, tyler is right, especially in Temple of Doom. Harrison herniated his back in the fight scene in his room when indy is contemplating whether or not to go to willie's room.

hey, it's never too late to discuss the star wars universe. feel free to add/raise your own points here.

btw i read in empire mag that ford's injury was from riding the elephants in temple of doom. apparently, when you're atop one of those huge beasts, your legs are splayed wide apart, placing a lot of stress on the lower verterbrae. but u may be right, the fight scene with the thuggee strangler could very well have contributed to his back injury.

 

[MISFIT]

tyler's right bro it's never too late!!!..hense why im glad i started this thread!.
Seriously thought there have bein some very very good thoughts on this thread.
keep it up my fellow freaks!!