MARVEL' S Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[jye4ever]

In todays world that could happen if Raiders was remade.

 

[Star-Crunch]

I didn’t even realize Wyatt Russell is Kurt Russell’s son

 

[ZE_501]

Damn you guys really mad at isiah huh?
I mean sheesh the guy got trauma. Of course he didn?t fight with cap America. He felt betrayed by the world he protected. I know you guys don?t sympathize. And I?m not gonna get into it further but it?s how some felt after ww2. They felt betrayed by America. Cause they fought for the country and came home to racism .

Anyway back to the toys

[...]I find all the moaning (about their exploring in depth the black man taking up the shield issue) to be quite humorous. If they glossed over it the same people would be criticizing them for lacking the guts to address it.

Smartest post in the whole thread. I thought I was the only one here who actually understood what the writers were conveying, good to know someone else didn?t miss it too.

The dialogue explicitly mentioned real-life WWII fighting units. Isaiah got imprisoned and treated like a lab rat for saving his guys. All seems cut and dry to me. Man's got a real grievance, he's not whining. I don't get the comparison between Bucky's experience and his. Bucky was imprisoned, tortured and used by the BAD GUYS. Not the country he was fighting for.

As Buffinator says -- I've found that popular entertainment is the definition of a no-win situation when it comes to Internet fandom. People gonna shred it for one reason or another. But everyone watches and Disney rakes in the cash.

 

[JAWS]

I didn’t even realize Wyatt Russell is Kurt Russell’s son

I watched a horror film called Overlord that he was in. It was driving me crazy all film of who he reminded me of.

Finally I was like.. " I bet that is Kurt Russell's son" and sure enough it was.

That was a couple of years ago and the same thing just happened with FATWS

I was like who does this guy remind me of

Amazing how goofy he looked in that first shot as Cap.. But boy I love that character.

He sounds and looks so much like Kurt sometimes.. Time for a Escape from NY reboot

 

[JAWS]

BTW as an MCU lover I will never rewatch WV or Falcon ever again no matter what happens in the Falcon last episode!

Mando S1 and S2 I did twice each already and will do a 3rd when the time comes

Hmmmmm I am loving this show so far.. Well the last one was a drag with all the boat stuff.. But I have enjoyed each and every episode. I'll watch this again for sure.

 

[JAWS]

I was fine with Isaiah's story. Plus when exactly was he supposed to fight alongside Steve? While he was in prison? During Infinity War? I don't think he had a Quinjet parked behind the house to zip over to Edinburgh to help save Vision & SW, or to help out in Wakanda. And for all we know he may have been dusted for 5 years, but regardless even if he wanted to help out without Dr. Strange and his band of sorcerers sending an invite & opening a portal for him he wasn't going to make the Endgame fight either.

I find all the moaning (about their exploring in depth the black man taking up the shield issue) to be quite humorous. If they glossed over it the same people would be criticizing them for lacking the guts to address it.

I dont mind the Isaiah story so much.

I was more frustrated with the cops giving Sam a hard time about seeing his ID and asking Bucky "Is this man Bothering you"

I mean a white guy in the middle of the hood talking to a black man... Best check the black guys ID.

It was so forced and so out of place.

There are ways to tell stories of these sort of things without being preachy.

 

[JAWS]

He?s much better than Scott Eastwood!

Wonder if he will be in the The Thing remake

I like Scott.. But he has not been picking the best roles.

 

[jye4ever]

Hmmmmm I am loving this show so far.. Well the last one was a drag with all the boat stuff.. But I have enjoyed each and every episode. I'll watch this again for sure.

You savage you first you disappear into your snobby polystone statue world then you pop in unexpected and put a wrinkle in Khevs and Wor-Gars hatred of this show lol

 

[a-dev]

I watched a horror film called Overlord that he was in. It was driving me crazy all film of who he reminded me of.

Finally I was like.. " I bet that is Kurt Russell's son" and sure enough it was.

That was a couple of years ago and the same thing just happened with FATWS

I was like who does this guy remind me of

Amazing how goofy he looked in that first shot as Cap.. But boy I love that character.

He sounds and looks so much like Kurt sometimes.. Time for a Escape from NY reboot

Googling him the other day I saw that he has already said he wouldn't take on any of his dad's characters, that for him it'd be career suicide. Sensible enough, I wouldn't risk it either if I was him. Although I wouldn't see a problem if they shared a new character in a movie with Wyatt playing said hypothetical character in his youth and Kurt the older years.

 

[matticus]

 

[Sassafras]

They are ?hammering it? because it?s still a very real and present issue. Look especially at the last 4 years. Filmmakers and studios have almost always used film to bring up social issues of he day. Marvel itself has literally done this for most of its publication run.

If you don?t want social issues in your film you should stay as far away from MCU as you can. Because if they follow the publication history , your gonna be disappointed.

Now with SW I can sort of understand your point, although one could argue even that property was addressing some social issues throughout its early run.

Most of the complaints I see about this topic are simple cases of people who don?t want a black mans story in their media....if you wanna claim it?s not just THIS type of black mans story, then we just have different views of what the black experience in America has been for the past 200 years.


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I'd argue tho, and many have said the same, that it's not whether it's a black man's story in their media; or Asian...or the one I'm waiting for, Native American.

It's the WAY a character is introduced and presented. There's some pretty funny essays, for example, on ever since Tolkien, just about every quest type fantasy book is pretty imitative assembling its team of noble warrior with a cool sword, an elf, the dwarf or orc, and a woman with some kind of special powers. The imitations may be well written; but, u know exactly where the whole story came from.

When's the last time a completely original iconic comic character got introduced? Maybe all the good ideas have been used up. But Isaiah is a character created by morphing off the character arc of Captain America; instead of making use of something original. Like, all the redlining that went on in Chicago as African Americans migrated North after the U.S. Civil War. Why not start in that crucible, developing an ORIGINAL character based on that history?

IMO saying "well, we don't want a woman/black person/white person/brown person" playing in our sandbox is too simplistic. Look how well Black Panther was introduced - in a movie that DID deal with the global issue of unmonitored used of power; and splits friends apart over the question of guilt/innocence.

Personally, I sure don't have a problem with Falcon becoming the next Cap; the image of a winged Cap is kinda cool; and for completely selfish reasons I'd rather have the Winter Soldier stay the Winter Soldier as a character. Heck, I'm already taking a liking to Torres who guess is gonna be the new Falcon.

But that's the thing; instead of a series stuffed with dry banter between Sam and Bucky; a few nice quiet moments talking about Steve; or war in general; or Bucky trying to figure out what to do (credit to the series for that one); humor - well, yeah, there is that. But the presentation is SO HEAVY, and not exactly believable like the whole "Avengers didn't get paid" stuff.

Are you kidding? Someone, probably Stark, bankrolled millions of dollars worth of building and equipment - he says as much in AOU. Plus, Fury had a vested interest in having a team of Avengers=Federal government funding. Doesn't compute that no-one was getting paid.

So how's Bucky paying for a New York apartment, anyway? Too bad they didn't do something funnier, like Bucky handing Falcon stacks of Hydra cash from some old hidden safehouse, and Sam having a meltdown over that and the huge weapons cache. And it would've made sense too; a lot of traumatized people will hoard stuff - food, money, bug-out kit, etc.

That's the kind of thing I was expecting; not that white bank people are bumbling insensitive clods. There's good stuff in this series; started off well; but Spellman & co. sucked most of the fun out. At least Zemo was a breath a fresh air. Completely illogical, but feel like I'm entitled to be *&&% off. A couple of my fav MCU characters - the favorite even - and instead of something I'd rewatch like Avengers 1 or TWS, I get a leaden barrage of current society issues and rehashed storylines. So much angst! And boat repair.

I should've been losing it over the finale and checking the bank balance to order figs by now; instead I just feel kind of tepid about the whole thing.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Your not paying attention. It?s very clear. He says he went against orders, and they didn?t like a black man doing that, going rogue, so they decided he needed correcting and experiments.

Why is that complicated?

You are right, I might not be paying attention, the show just bores me so often.

That take is not complicated... but I believe it is also wrong. He wasn't experimented on because he went rogue. They wanted to know why the serum worked on him -- that part of the story he made clear in a simple sentence. Maybe he feels like they experimented on him because he disobeyed orders... or his survival proved the serum worked so they started cutting him up to find out why... but I don't believe he was tortured because he went rogue if that's what you are suggesting.

 

[Sassafras]

I dont mind the Isaiah story so much.

I was more frustrated with the cops giving Sam a hard time about seeing his ID and asking Bucky "Is this man Bothering you"

I mean a white guy in the middle of the hood talking to a black man... Best check the black guys ID.

It was so forced and so out of place.

There are ways to tell stories of these sort of things without being preachy.

That; and while I've got no doubt there's U.S. neighborhoods and areas where if u look "wrong" ur gonna get questioned -

the urban East which has a pretty mixed population anyway isn't a place I'd set an incident like that. U can't even get the police to do
a report on minor traffic accidents; they just tell you to get your cars to the side of the road.

Same with the bank routine; as an ex-soldier Sam Wilson would have known all about applying to Federal programs in DC; credit unions for the military;
secured loans; plus wasn't the whole point of the GRC to get people back on their feet?

Got the feeling the writers should have spent some time in DC/Baltimore and talked to some average government workers and spent some time on military bases
before writing the script. Find it hard to believe that someone honorably discharged like Sam Wilson wouldn't know how to research available help - tho the writers did seem to be aware that stripping Walker of his benefits was a particularly nasty slap. So that was weird.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I dont mind the Isaiah story so much.

I was more frustrated with the cops giving Sam a hard time about seeing his ID and asking Bucky "Is this man Bothering you"

I mean a white guy in the middle of the hood talking to a black man... Best check the black guys ID.

It was so forced and so out of place.

There are ways to tell stories of these sort of things without being preachy.

This. If it wasn't a hot-point societal truth, its handling would be called two-dimensional and cartoony. Heavy-handed. Ham-fisted. Amateurish. And yes... worst of all: preachy.

 

[jye4ever]

You are right, I might not be paying attention, the show just bores me so often.

That take is not complicated... but I believe it is also wrong. He wasn't experimented on because he went rogue. They wanted to know why the serum worked on him -- that part of the story he made clear in a simple sentence. Maybe he feels like they experimented on him because he disobeyed orders... or his survival proved the serum worked so they started cutting him up to find out why... but I don't believe he was tortured because he went rogue if that's what you are suggesting.

Already way too much thought than it deserves lol

 

[ZE_501]

[...]
Got the feeling the writers should have spent some time in DC/Baltimore and talked to some average government workers and spent some time on military bases
before writing the script. Find it hard to believe that someone honorably discharged like Sam Wilson wouldn't know how to research available help - tho the writers did seem to be aware that stripping Walker of his benefits was a particularly nasty slap. So that was weird.

This. If it wasn't a hot-point societal truth, its handling would be called two-dimensional and cartoony. Heavy-handed. Ham-fisted. Amateurish. And yes... worst of all: preachy.

Some of this stuff raised questions for me, but a lot of it just went by likely because of what I'm watching ... I think I just have lower standards for a lot of this genre stuff, or maybe I'm just fried from staying home during a pandemic. If I had to think about it I'd say TFWS *is* a cartoon but it's weird how some stuff sticks out to me and other stuff just skates on by or even makes sense.

 

[ZE_501]

You are right, I might not be paying attention, the show just bores me so often.

That take is not complicated... but I believe it is also wrong. He wasn't experimented on because he went rogue. They wanted to know why the serum worked on him -- that part of the story he made clear in a simple sentence. Maybe he feels like they experimented on him because he disobeyed orders... or his survival proved the serum worked so they started cutting him up to find out why... but I don't believe he was tortured because he went rogue if that's what you are suggesting.

We don't know the nature of the experimentation, and what I took away from it was that he was imprisoned due to going rogue to save his buddies, am I wrong? I'd have to watch again. At any rate, he has enough grievance with the establishment given what black people dealt with post-war and we really have no idea what happened to him in the intervening decades or what he did.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

This. If it wasn't a hot-point societal truth, its handling would be called two-dimensional and cartoony. Heavy-handed. Ham-fisted. Amateurish. And yes... worst of all: preachy.

The truth is you dont end racism with racism against white people (specifically white men) but thats the route disney is taking. According to disney all white males are deeply flawed (John Walker/Bucky Barnes), evil and or racist (Captain America 1.0 lecture)- this is why there will be no white male leads any of their films for a while (spiderman sequel had already began filming before this agenda really took hold) and what ive been saying all along about their "agenda" (eg replacing all the white males with all girl and or people of color avengers team). What we really need right now are more messages of unity and less of this in your face crap. Yes we know about the horrible past with slavery, its still present to a degree but its more subversive type which is why they use the term institutionalized.

Yes there are still crazy white trash racist cops and hillbilly's out there but there are also racist black people. I have seen plenty of hate crimes against Asian Americans on the news perpetrated by black americans. There was one instance that was not deemed a hate crime cause the asian girl had a white boyfriend who was also assaulted during the attack. I guess if you attack white males it cant be called a hate crime- thats pretty sad white males are being stripped of any sort of humanity in this society. Not all white males are racist evil people its so dumb- the vast majority of white males are good people just like the vast majority of black people. Its redonkulous

One final thing id like to add is that speech by captain america 1.0 was same ******** i have heard for years, because white forefathers were racist that means all white people today are racist- the race doesnt change they are just bad- that sort of blanket stereotyping applied to all people of a certain complexion is the very definition of racism. Obviously the people that were experimenting on him were not the same ones alive in the government today yet he told Sam no self respecting black man would ever take that shield... Why because the white people he knew back when society was vastly different were bad so that means they are still bad today. That is a very racist comment, to say a an entire race of people are all bad evil and racist forever- that great grandsons & daughters possess the exact same thinking as their forefathers- i understand why he hated white people, the same reason jews hate nazi/germans, but that is not the line of thinking that will lead us to change in society going forward. You dont right the wrongs perpetrated against black people by perpetrating those same wrongs against white males- its completely counterproductive

 

[ZE_501]

The truth is [...]

1. I expect the mods to lock this down any second. Thread has jumped the COC

2. If some (not all) of what you just wrote is actually your understanding of what?s going on, it?s no wonder you think it?s all nonsense.

I believe your understanding is flawed and lacks nuance, but that?s really all I?m going to say on the matter.

You can research carefully and maybe shift your thinking on your own, but nothing some guy says on the Internet will change your mind so I won?t go down that road.

As for Disney ... I keep saying their only agenda is profit. They?re not actually political.


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[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

1. I expect the mods to lock this down any second. Thread has jumped the COC

2. If some (not all) of what you just wrote is actually your understanding of what?s going on, it?s no wonder you think it?s all nonsense.

I believe your understanding is flawed and lacks nuance, but that?s really all I?m going to say on the matter.

You can research carefully and maybe shift your thinking on your own, but nothing some guy says on the Internet will change your mind so I won?t go down that road.

As for Disney ... I keep saying their only agenda is profit. They?re not actually political.


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Yes profit but they are riding the gravy train of hating on white men cause its all the rage right now- its the "hipster" thing they believe it will sell no doubt, but you cannot say the message isnt political because alot of captain america 1.0 speech was very political and in your face. Most of what they are doing is more subversive like replacing the male characters slowly but surely, its also in how they portray certain characters (hermit luke skywalker- white male heroes of yesteryear) but ya I dont expect people to agree with me, nor am i trying to convince anyone- this is the impression i've been getting from them for a while now- its what i believe has been wrong with their movies lately- i just cant shake the feeling they are trying to brainwash people with their films. I just want to be entertained when i watch movies i dont need to be told how bad a certain *** and race is over and over