Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

Collector Freaks Forum

Help Support Collector Freaks Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I don't think RJ was trying to tell a tale that had anything to do with mentors not being needed. In fact, if anything, he was saying the opposite. When Rey and Luke were in the tree library, Luke told her that she needed a teacher. He pointed that out to her even as he was in the middle of trying to end the Jedi "religion." The teacher/student dynamic was obviously not one of the flawed Jedi ideas.

The need for mentorship was then reinforced when Yoda had to show up to remind Luke of earlier lessons that he wasn't heeding. Luke still needed his mentor, even though he himself was a Master. Without Yoda, Luke wouldn't have finished his turnaround. That was supposed to be a significant takeaway from what RJ's story was all about.

Yoda was encouraging Luke not to let his perceived failure keep him from being what Rey needed: a teacher. Guide her from what you know, and let her learn from our failures so that she can be even better. "We are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters."

So, instead of focusing strictly on the analogy to religion, think about an analogy to martial arts. How would martial arts be mastered by someone without the benefit of some form of passed-down knowledge? Like using the Force, you can have raw skill and desire, but you need guidance in order to master the art form. Books can teach you, but learning under the tutelage of a master is the time-honored method that works best. So too with the Force. RJ wasn't trying to change that aspect.

Great position. I think the martial arts example is a good one.

You could be trained by Mr Miyagi or Cobra Kai.

The indoctrination is still the issue. Although even in that example one could argue that Miyagi WAS indoctrinating his student into eastern philosophical ways.

I think its almost impossible to separate a mentor/master/teacher training a student/apprentice/learner from being influenced.

I believe Luke thinks ALL organized teaching was bad , especially under the guise of an “ancient religion”. He thought the only way to stop conflict was to take the organizing/controlling organization out of the equation. Hence his first lesson to Rey.

I do not think his conversation with Yoda in any way detracted from that. Yoda says the “books contain knowledge” but Rey had “everything she needed” before she had any training from Luke.....



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
Great position. I think the martial arts example is a good one.

You could be trained by Mr Miyagi or Cobra Kai.

The indoctrination is still the issue. Although even in that example one could argue that Miyagi WAS indoctrinating his student into eastern philosophical ways.

I think its almost impossible to separate a mentor/master/teacher training a student/apprentice/learner from being influenced.

I believe Luke thinks ALL organized teaching was bad , especially under the guise of an “ancient religion”. He thought the only way to stop conflict was to take the organizing/controlling organization out of the equation. Hence his first lesson to Rey.

I do not think his conversation with Yoda in any way detracted from that. Yoda says the “books contain knowledge” but Rey had “everything she needed” before she had any training from Luke.....

Hmmm... Very interesting food for thought. But you shouldn't confuse what Luke was saying when he was at his lowest point for being what he ultimately believes. I think you need to remember what the catalyst was for Luke's exile, and for the motive to end the Jedi: his nephew turning to the dark side.

Luke took that personally, and blamed himself more than he should have (a credit to Luke's character, imo). The parallels to what had happened with his father were too obvious, so he made a blanket conclusion that the Jedi way was to blame for repeatedly failing in the same way. So he wanted to end the cycle.

In the scene below, Luke starts describing those objections to the Jedi, but Rey catches him in his muddled logic. And that's when we get to see what's really going on with him. He's feeling like he let his family down. It's a deeply personal hurt that's driving his philosophical crisis.

Pay special attention to when Luke mentions Leia. Hamill does a great job of conveying Luke's burden over having taken his sister's son and losing him to the dark side. Everything else Luke has become cynical about is rooted in how he can't forgive himself for that failure.



By the end of the film, Rey had gotten through to Luke. But it took Yoda to really bring him back. Yes, his old Jedi master. In the end, Luke tells Kylo that he will not be the last Jedi. Luke's faith and hope has been restored. The Jedi way doesn't need to die; but it does need to learn from past failures.

Listen to Luke starting at the 0:40 mark in this next clip. This says it all about where Luke's mind and heart were at, but also where Luke is at going forward.



The TLJ Luke narrative might forever be misunderstood, but it really shouldn't be. I think it's all layed out really clearly.
 
Not a lol this is legit...

It will be revealed in TROS that Rey was in bed with Kylo when Luke attacked him in the hut the question is why was she there and why was her memory erased to not remember it. It did seem like Kylo made a defensive move to block not just him but someone else.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Not a lol this is legit...

It will be revealed in TROS that Rey was in bed with Kylo when Luke attacked him in the hut the question is why was she there and why was her memory erased to not remember it. It did seem like Kylo made a defensive move to block not just him but someone else.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wouldn't Rey be like 10 at that point though?:dunno:horror

Taken out of context, without the exhaustive stretch before hand at Canto Bight, etc, that scene actually plays better than I remember. I only saw it once before.

Reminds me of what Larry Kasdan said about TPM - turn off the sound and it's more enjoyable.
 
Wouldn't Rey be like 10 at that point though?:dunno:horror



Reminds me of what Larry Kasdan said about TPM - turn off the sound and it's more enjoyable.

Not in the context you’re thinking about gutter brain lol

More of
hiding protecting her from either Luke or someone else trying to kill her


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I don't think RJ was trying to tell a tale that had anything to do with mentors not being needed. In fact, if anything, he was saying the opposite. When Rey and Luke were in the tree library, Luke told her that she needed a teacher. He pointed that out to her even as he was in the middle of trying to end the Jedi "religion." The teacher/student dynamic was obviously not one of the flawed Jedi ideas.

The need for mentorship was then reinforced when Yoda had to show up to remind Luke of earlier lessons that he wasn't heeding. Luke still needed his mentor, even though he himself was a Master. Without Yoda, Luke wouldn't have finished his turnaround. That was supposed to be a significant takeaway from what RJ's story was all about.

Yoda was encouraging Luke not to let his perceived failure keep him from being what Rey needed: a teacher. Guide her from what you know, and let her learn from our failures so that she can be even better. "We are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters."

So, instead of focusing strictly on the analogy to religion, think about an analogy to martial arts. How would martial arts be mastered by someone without the benefit of some form of passed-down knowledge? Like using the Force, you can have raw skill and desire, but you need guidance in order to master the art form. Books can teach you, but learning under the tutelage of a master is the time-honored method that works best. So too with the Force. RJ wasn't trying to change that aspect.

Interesting parallel because Jedi/force really did tap into the martial arts craze of the 1970s (among many crazes SW tapped into) and back then the force really was an equal-opportunity thing - anybody could be a practitioner. It was Midiclorians and the utter boredom of the Jedi Council that kinda sunk the whole thing - sucking all the joy and fun out of lightsabers and Jedi robes. The visual of hundreds in Jedi robes with lightsabers swinging would have been such a cool idea for a SW fan of the 1970s, but the reality turned out to be such a bore.

Well Hitchcock said he believed that sound killed true cinema so maybe he was right with regard to TPM, lol.

You are the only person on the planet this year who will draw a parallel between TPM and Hitchcock.:lol
 
Complete opposite of Halloween 78.

Without music the executives and distributors told Carpenter and Yablans the movie was a bore after the music was inserted the same executives and distributors said the movie was a masterpiece.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Interesting parallel because Jedi/force really did tap into the martial arts craze of the 1970s (among many crazes SW tapped into) and back then the force really was an equal-opportunity thing - anybody could be a practitioner. It was Midiclorians and the utter boredom of the Jedi Council that kinda sunk the whole thing - sucking all the joy and fun out of lightsabers and Jedi robes. The visual of hundreds in Jedi robes with lightsabers swinging would have been such a cool idea for a SW fan of the 1970s, but the reality turned out to be such a bore.

There is nothing more cringe worthy than those AOTC Jedi’s in the arena.

TLJ is master class filmmaking when compared to that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
What we've been taught about the Force is that there's a light side and a dark side. A Force user taps into one side or the other; not both at the same time. And each side seemingly has a few specific corresponding powers/abilities. Light side users (like the Jedi) don't appear to shoot lightning from their hands, and dark side users (like the Sith) don't seem to use the Jedi mind trick. I can't imagine a Jedi getting yellow Sith eyes, and I can't imagine a Sith getting a Force ghost.

And that's where we get into the idea of "balance of the Force." It's the balance between light and dark. For example, one of the theories about why the Sith developed the "rule of two" is because balancing the light of the Jedi (who used to always have many members) would mean that the fewer Sith there are, the more powerful their dark powers would be. If we extend that theory, it could be why Luke was so powerful (without much training) in the OT; he was one of the only Jedi left to balance out the Sith (Palps and Vader).

Anyway, I don't think light side users can tap into dark side powers, or vice versa. Once Anakin crossed over to the dark side, for example, he changed (yellow eyes being the visual cue). Maybe he wasn't able to summon light side abilities (like the Jedi mind trick) anymore. So, the hypothetical evil Force ghost wouldn't be able to exist. But that's why one of the Jedi's responsibilities seems to be helping maintain that balance of the Force: to prevent a drastic and dangerous shifting.

Jedi have to be careful not to go too far, because it would lead them to fall to the dark side. If a Jedi were to abuse the power of being a Force ghost, it could presumably open the door for a balancing dark-side power surge. As Luke explained in TLJ: "powerful light, powerful darkness." And as Snoke put it: "darkness rises, and light to meet it." So, the reverse would be true as well.

This "distinction" is much clearer in Wookiepedia/EU/books than it is on screen in the OT though. A few examples:

- Luke uses the same force-choke-people-to-death thing that is Vader's trademark force ability. (More than bad cataracts or lightning, you would think that using the force to murder someone would be THE dark-side-only aspect.)

- Luke does the same "force-texting" thing that Vader does (Luke contacts Leia, letting her know he's in danger and she says "I know where Luke is" under Bespin) and in the same way.

- Yoda can move rocks with his mind, Vader can move lumps of machinery with his mind.

- Vader can sense Ben's arrival on the Death Star, Luke in his x-wing and in the Shuttle in ROTJ, just as it's clear that Ben senses Vader on the Death Star and Luke senses Vader's presence on the Endor moon.

The mind trick thing ("light side only") is not really a fair assessment because Vader is so powerful in the OT he really has no need to use a mind trick for deception (which is all it amounts to) versus Ben who is on the run and in a position of great weakness. And Motti sarcastically mentions "clairvoyance" to Vader before he's choked - which at least vaguely suggests that Vader has indicated he has "mind tricks" that can help the Empire (that he hasn't delivered on.)

Even the dark/light "morals" aspects get super murky: Luke slaughters a metric ton of Jabba's henchmen (who don't even work for the Empire, just crooks,) just as Vader kills (though far less) rebels or his own officers. Ben's highly skilled at mental deception entering Mos Eisley on the Death Star, but CHOOSES to literally dismember Evazan and Walrusman because they are drunk and aggressive.

The ST and Disney continues this ambivalent dark/light equivalence: even if it doesn't come from his fingers, Yoda's ghost wields lightning like Palps does (more visually related to nature, but the result is the same - a force user producing lightning to destructive effect.) Vader's going postal in RO is not much dofferent Luke going postal in ROTJ.

Even stuff like non-intervention of force ghosts rules are vague from OT to ST: Ben's ghost refuses to help Luke even as he's about to fall to his death beneath Bespin, despite Luke BEGGING him to come. Yet Yoda's ghost randomly shows up in TLJ to "help" destroy the tree - both fairly pivotal moments for Luke for different reasons, but you'd think the ESB example would be the better intervention, even if both are technically "interfering" in Luke's trajectory.

I get that huge effort has been expended over the decades to try to build this lore (the construction of light/dark rules reminds me of the problems in creating "Aurebesh" language from what was seen onscreen in brief snippets in ESB and ROTJ) and massive numbers of publications have nitpicked stuff to set up "rules" but as presented in the OT it really doesn't present as that way.

It becomes almost impossible to argue against it all because there are hundreds of books, comics, shows, etc that have embraced this stuff - but all I go off is "what was filmed for the OT?"

There most certainly is a light and dark side in the OT, but its more just two approaches to the same thing with murky rules, more mixed together and the same thing that can flip-flop quickly, which to me is what made it so powerful and mysterious. Just like our own decisions that can turn on a dime in pivotal moments. It's this distinct lining up of light side and dark side entities and attributes that kind of bothers me. A drone can be a child's toy, an amazing tool for marine biologists, or can wipe out a village.

To me, a person can no more easily bring balance to the force than bring balance to our planet. To paraphrase the old saying, interpretations of the force are like *ssholes - everyone's got one.

So much of that EU stuff is muddled anyway - the ROTJ novel and many other EU sources attempt to say that Luke just burns Vader's suit (ie Anakin's body disappears like Yoda's did,) yet it's clear Anakin's body stays after he's died onscreen and the ROTJ screenplay says Luke sets "a torch to the logs stacked under a funeral pyre where his father's body lies." But no, that suit is empty now, folks (why would Luke transport an empty suit to a massive funeral pyre and emotionally watch it burn?).:dunno

This is the kind of random and mysterious stuff I LIKE, and also shows how so many of these iron-clad "rules" ignore what was the intention or even contradicts what was onscreen.
 
Hmmm... Very interesting food for thought. But you shouldn't confuse what Luke was saying when he was at his lowest point for being what he ultimately believes. I think you need to remember what the catalyst was for Luke's exile, and for the motive to end the Jedi: his nephew turning to the dark side.

Luke took that personally, and blamed himself more than he should have (a credit to Luke's character, imo). The parallels to what had happened with his father were too obvious, so he made a blanket conclusion that the Jedi way was to blame for repeatedly failing in the same way. So he wanted to end the cycle.

In the scene below, Luke starts describing those objections to the Jedi, but Rey catches him in his muddled logic. And that's when we get to see what's really going on with him. He's feeling like he let his family down. It's a deeply personal hurt that's driving his philosophical crisis.

Pay special attention to when Luke mentions Leia. Hamill does a great job of conveying Luke's burden over having taken his sister's son and losing him to the dark side. Everything else Luke has become cynical about is rooted in how he can't forgive himself for that failure.



By the end of the film, Rey had gotten through to Luke. But it took Yoda to really bring him back. Yes, his old Jedi master. In the end, Luke tells Kylo that he will not be the last Jedi. Luke's faith and hope has been restored. The Jedi way doesn't need to die; but it does need to learn from past failures.

Listen to Luke starting at the 0:40 mark in this next clip. This says it all about where Luke's mind and heart were at, but also where Luke is at going forward.



The TLJ Luke narrative might forever be misunderstood, but it really shouldn't be. I think it's all layed out really clearly.


Mmmmmm. I definitely see your point. But I think Luke was more interested in goading Kylo into a fight and distracting him with the one thing he knew would drive him crazy. Him returning as saying the Jedi would return. I think he will try to have Rey re write the Jedi way to a more pure teaching, rather than the formal / ridged dogma of the former Jedi counsel and academy.


In the end, Luke did a very Un Jedi thing by not fighting. The Jedi of PT would have gone down a military like route, fighting and continuing the struggle which continues the conflict that affects the entire galaxy. The struggle is the problem, the answer is non violence . Its very interesting to note, that both Luke and Rey saved the remaining rebels by using the force in a non violent way. Luke used Kylos anger against him , he was not even present, and Rey rescued them by “moving rocks” , not in a light saber battle. To quote a much hated line , they both “saved what they loved”. So the future Jedi, will be more like the noble knights of yore, and less like the fighters of PT. In the end even the character of Obi Wan saved his companions by self sacrifice. All this is very contrary to the Jedi in PT.

My guess the “old knowledge” in the Ancient Texts reveals the original Jedi to be more like Tibetan monks than Samurai.

Yoda says its time to look past a “pile of old books”.....and that the texts do not contain anything Rey already has.

In the end that conversation is about passing on what you have learned from your failures. Every character in TLJ fails....and what they learn from the failure is more important than the failure itself. What they learn is not to be PT Jedi, and perhaps more like the ancient Jedi...




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
The more I read the more i’m inclined to just keep ANH/ESB and throw away everything else with the words Star Wars on it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Back
Top