Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER
- Thread starter CallMeTheDoctor
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I still do
That?s also how I defend the PT. It?s his universe (or was), we?re just living in it. It was never going to turn out different so why get cut up about it.
The thing with the PT hate comes down to three things: unreachable expectations, unfounded entitlement (or more tactfully put, creative differences), and some bad dialogue.
Unreachable Expectations: The PT was following the greatest trilogy of all time and 2 movies in that trilogy have a case as not only the greatest sci-fi films of all time, but some of the greatest movies of all time. The bar was impossible to clear as soon as the PT was officially announced. It’s partly why the critics and fans were so tough on them.
Unfounded Entitlement: Fans had 15+ years to create a backstory to the OT. 15 years of speculation of how these events came to unfold. The PT was never going to be a carbon copy of the OT like the ST was, it was going to be a unique new story, set in a different era of the galaxy, the fall of the Republic. Fans had their own view of how Yoda should act, how the Force should be, how Vader came to be... purely put, entitlement. Some fans didn’t get what they wanted, they didn’t get what they thought should have wanted, and as most watched the PT movies with their rose tinted nostalgia glasses on, the feelings towards the PT was slightly based in irrational territory.
Bad Dialogue: Self-explanatory. But even this gets too much hate. One is a ten year old boy. Another is a teen raised by an order that forbids attachment. If he wasn’t cringey it would be odd. Some of the best acting in the trilogy was after Anakin slaughtered the Tuskens, but it just is a meme now. Hayden did everything right in those scences, from emotion, to facial expressions, to tone, to the physical acting. But, the PT is nitpicked beyond belief for the above two reasons, so the bad dialogue, that also exists in the OT, just gets amplified.
All 3 PT movies are on or near the level of ROTJ. TPM was a great movie showing Vader’s origins with one of the best lightsaber duels ever. Iconic characters in Maul and Jinn. Even the acting was mostly good outside of some lines from “Little Ani.” Jar Jar served a more meaningful, grounded role than the Ewoks ever did, but somehow 2 foot tall teddy bears you could punt across a room taking down the Empire is fine, but a good hearted goofball who just wants to help is Satan. AOTC is also a fine movie, but somehow no one ever wants to accept that fact and uses the excuse of about 10 minutes of a love story derailing the movie. ROTS is better than ROTJ too.
Prime Clone
Super Freak
What does that mean?
The particular set of circumstances meant it was always going to be George's way or the highway. He funded them himself so they were always going to be his unfiltered vision, warts and all, for better or worse.
As for the acting and directing, he tried to recruit other directors (Spielberg, Howard, Darabont etc) but they declined. So you can't really blame him for doing it all himself.
I concur. And I'm quite happy with that!
Where can you buy these particular versions if not eBay?
The fourth point is they are truly awful movies - they were at the time, and still are in hindsight. Like largely unwatchable to me (I've tried many times,) which is a level of bad that's rare.
Not just bad dialogue, but bad story, bad (at times very bad) acting, even a surprising amount of bad FX also - given the vast over reliance on CGI that just wasn't quite up to the task at that point, making large portions look like a video game cut-scene.
This isn't nitpicking. These are still some of the worst major movies I've ever seen in my life. The fact they happen to be SW movies, and made by GL, is profoundly sad to me.
I respect what GL was trying to do (in multiple ways), there are some designs I like from them, and even some scenes/sequences I like. But to try to say that these movies are somehow unfairly maligned due to "Unfounded Entitlement" and "Unreachable Expectations" is a laughable dodge.
Prime Clone
Super Freak
Maybe ?misguided expectations? would be better. People wanted the same vibe as the OT but it was tonally different, necessarily because it was set at the height of the Republic and explored more civilised worlds (and politics).
But your complaints are valid, and I?m happy to admit I give the PT a pass because it provided a back story for my beloved OT - just like others give the ST a pass because it has the same characters as *their* beloved OT (and was better acted and directed, if not as original).
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********. There is nothing wrong with the PT. The Ducky nailed it on the head - 10 minutes of romanctic scenes and people smash AOTC as the worst film of all time. It was nowhere near it. It's a fine film and holds its own.
It isn’t laughable whatsoever, it is the truth, at the very least a partial truth. No other movie has been as picked apart by a line by line basis as the PT. Because of reasons 1 and 2, everything is amplified beyond reason. What acting was so bad? You say you can’t make it through these movies, but what specific scenes were so bad you couldn’t watch? I can almost guarantee you that majority of PT haters don’t give it an actual clean state no preconceptions chance, fall into an echo chamber of hate, and are purely disappointed because it isn’t there Star Wars that they knew or thought they knew or the Star Wars they wanted. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. And you know how I know this? You told me it is a bad story. Not a poorly told story, but a bad story, implying the entire basis of the PT was bas from the start. Seeing how the Emperor rose to power, how the Republic collapsed, how Vader became Vader, why Kenobi was in exile.... seems to be a fine and logical story to me. But, back to point two, it’s not what you wanted or what you thought would happen. Dismissed out of hand. More and more you watch, more and more you hate, more and more things should have been different.
The bad acting? It’s in the OT. Just see the first couple minutes in ANH with those troopers flopping over. The bad dialogue? It’s in the OT (Noooooooo!) Bad effects? Yes, the OT aged poorly. Bad story? Well, two foot tall Teddy Bears can take down the force that conquered the galaxy.... if that’s not a bad story, I don’t what is. Or perhaps it’s the giant butthole with tentacles trying to eat Han. You decide.
And ya know why all these issues get ignored? Because you had no established universe, no understanding of the universe. Star Wars and your view of it, and presumably love of it, was established with those movies. You didn’t know who Vader was or supposed to be. How the Empire rose. How or what the Force is or works. So, when new movies come along, and change some things, when you don’t feel that nostalgia, and introduce you to ideas that you disagreed with... people ripped it to shreds beyond belief while completely ignoring the faults of the OT, because the OT is there Star Wars.
As I said before, take out points 1 and 2, and these PT movies are right at or near ROTJ level.
jye4ever
Broke and happy
PT:
Vader ruined (again)
Anakin ruined
Yoda ruined
Fett ruined
C3PO ruined
ST:
SW ruined
Mando:
SW saved
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Vader ruined (again)
Anakin ruined
Yoda ruined
Fett ruined
C3PO ruined
ST:
SW ruined
Mando:
SW saved
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Let me guess, saw the OT as a kid, OT Purist, who had established back stories for these characters before the PT? And, when they diverged from your pre established expectations, they became ruined? So, point 2, creative differences.
I really fail to see how any of those characters were ruined by the PT.
*sings like Huey Lewis* is this the 2020s? Or 1999!
ironwez20
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Forgive him his love for his nostalgia blinds him. Nothing was ruined. Just not what they wanted. Disney flashes a millennium falcon on the screen and he?ll love it
ironwez20
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Yoda ruined? Nah son. And while mando was good it didn?t save anything. It just solidified the fact that the movies were given to the wrong people.
I love how 2 people here always bag on the PT like it did sooooooo much damage. Lol the PT didn?t do nearly as much damage as ST did. TLJ is the most hated Star Wars film ever.
Again, personal opinion. But a core problem I had with the PT wasn't tone, vibe or expectations, it was that I had no idea what the hell was going on, starting with the opening crawl of TPM. And as PT minutes became hours, what I did understand seemed either bizarre, inane/idiotic or boring.
And despite names like Skywalker and faces like Yoda and 3PO, it was as if it wasn't even set in the same universe as the OT - imagining Han Solo and Princess Leia walking into those poorly rendered CGI rooms (that today look like something from a CD-ROM game circa 1995) of the PT was just beyond my comprehension.
As movies and stories the OT was 100% clear what was at stake, what was happening scene by scene, who was bad and who was good, and most importantly, why this story was incredibly relevant to the viewer. Not one of that list applied to the PT for me, other than weakly to the last one which was "watch it because it has a 'Star Wars' logo on it, and you like Star Wars."
I understand that for many, these films work (this is the case for friends of mine, so I'm sympathetic and don't drag out this dead horse often) but I'm responding to you only because I can't let someone say it's because of my expectations/preconceived notions I took into the theater that was the only issue. That's not true. I had no back stories I wanted to see for Vader or Ben or Luke. None. Never read any of the books, comics, EU stuff either.
The PT films were just numbing to me, from a creative/storytelling (vs technical) standpoint made with the height of filmic incompetence. While there were some thrills and design to appreciate, for me there was less than 1/10 of the enduring mythic resonance of the OT and honestly, very little memorable other than the shock that they could have failed so spectacularly.
The lesson of the PT likely is that everyone, GL included, attributed WAY too much of the success/appeal of the OT to GL - that he was in truth a mind that artists/creatives brought incredible content (story, design, performance, music) to based on his rough ideas/guidance, not himself the sole source as writer/director surrounded by adoring yes-men. Nobody said no to him, including him.
When someone has gone to the trouble of making "The People vs GL" and that awful phrase "GL raped my childhood" somehow reached critical mass, trust me - it's not about tone, vibe or expectations/back-stories you walked in with. Something major went down, and I do mean down.
That seems like a you problem. The movie was very easy to understand.
Well, it’s a 15 year difference and takes place in a completely different era. Tatooine still looked like Tatooine.
I find it hard to believe you didn’t know what was at stake or who was bad or good in the PT.
It is true. You just said you wanted it to look like the OT and when it didn’t it was “beyond your comprehension.” You wanted another OT and the PT never was going to be that.
Yeah, I’d assume something major went down in their head to legitimately think that. That phrase is based in my point. Didn’t get their way, didn’t get what they wanted, their version of Star Wars was altered, and despite not ruining a single thing of their childhood, it was “raped.” Ooookkay.
Didn’t you know? Yoda was supposed to be a silly old puppet in the PT. How dare George Lucas give him more depth! How dare George Lucas show Yoda as a badass and Grand Master of the Jedi Order! Who does he think he is!
The PT Yoda hatred is based purely on entitlement. There is no other word for it. They didn’t want the character portrayed that way, they wanted their version of the character that they thought up of for 15+ years, and when they didn’t get what they wanted, they say Yoda sucks or ruined or is ridiculous or is a joke. Yoda has a lightsaber! Who cares! It was awesome. It only adds to the character.
Look, this is just opinion vs opinion - just like it was before you posted what you did.
But this got started because you posted something that suggested it was "unreachable expectations" and "unfounded entitlement" (which sound like chapter titles from an aspirational SJW children's book
) as a way to try to retcon the PT reaction that a TON of people had. Rather than their opinion having validity, you made some stuff up about backstory baggage that people dragged into the movie.My opinion is that these were bad movies, in many cases downright dreadful. Dreadful everything - stupid attempts at humor, lug-headed story, terrible acting, confusing and confused, laughably bad dialogue, worst titles in history, awful SW crawls, often poor FX. The real deal.
You don't agree - and that's totally fine. But you don't see me listing off random stuff to mock why you love the PT. "No, it's not your opinion, it's a deficit in your mind that makes you love the PT." Get what I'm saying?
My comment was simply made because you tried to (pretty unconvincingly - maybe that's the issue) retcon and recategorize tens of millions of negative PT reactions - including my own - using made-up random stuff. Tired narratives of "You simply couldn't comprehend the genius of the PT because..."
No... just a different opinion. I say they are a cinematic train wreck, you say it's the SW version of Citizen Kane. And that's fine, right? And for the record, I hate that "raped my childhood" bs, and my view of GL was surprisingly undiminished by the PT.
jye4ever
Broke and happy
In any case all these things TheDucky is saying, even if valid, would also apply to those who hate the ST - ergo hating those films is also baseless and we must love it all.
Well I say never. Equal opportunity for all to dislike whatever Star Wars they dislike. Except if you dislike the OT
Well I say never. Equal opportunity for all to dislike whatever Star Wars they dislike. Except if you dislike the OT
jye4ever
Broke and happy
Out of 22 hours worth of SW movies only 4 hours are universally considered great.
If Terminator had 11 movies it would also be only 4 quality hours out of 22 lol
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If Terminator had 11 movies it would also be only 4 quality hours out of 22 lol
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