Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[chewblacca]

When TLJ novel came out people were referencing it to fill in holes the movie left and it was ok. Now that TROS book comes out and makes the movie even dumber there’s a problem?

 

[Khev]

Klaud might be my favorite moment. And the guy driving Lando’s tank. “OKAY.”

Oh yes I want an Ostrich Tank Driver figure too.

When TLJ novel came out people were referencing it to fill in holes the movie left and it was ok. Now that TROS book comes out and makes the movie even dumber there’s a problem?

Rey's lineage isn't a hole to fill. It was openly explained in the movie. SW movies trump books. Always have always will. In the TFA novelization Rey and Poe meet at the Resistance Base at the end of TFA. TLJ says they meet on the Falcon after leaving Crait. Which one wins? The film.

 

[chewblacca]

Then why were they introduced at the end of the last Jedi film as well? And if the lineage of Rey is never a question then who did Palpatine bump uglies with. I would love to see her grandmother.

 

[Khev]

Because novelizations mean nothing and they'd never actually met before.

 

[chewblacca]

So at the end of TFA when they are putting Finn on the stretcher there was Poe, Chewie and Rey. You’re saying Poe had no idea who this girl was who got off the Falcon with Chewie was?

 

[Asta]

A lot of people seem to be confused.


So let's take a trip back through time and put things into order so they make sense...

 

[Khev]

So at the end of TFA when they are putting Finn on the stretcher there was Poe, Chewie and Rey. You’re saying Poe had no idea who this girl was who got off the Falcon with Chewie was?

I'm saying that they didn't ever interact with another until the end of TLJ because that's what the movies say.

 

[ajp4mgs]

And and and ajp now loves TROS

I really wish that was true. I want to like it because of how much I enjoyed TFA and TLJ, but TROS just went so far off the rails, IMO. I'm just trying to turn enough of a corner to the point of being able to *accept* it. Enjoying it will never happen because I think it was a structurally weak film with too much of an incoherent narrative and no resonant thematic takeaway.

Here's the main question I'm trying to answer: At the end of TROS, what can we say was the point of the ST? The first two movies focused on how the fall of Ben Solo destroyed the Skywalker/Solo family and dovetailed into the larger First Order threat. They layed out how the Skywalker family had this epilogue to write in order to close the book on their legacy. And, of course, with the fate of the galaxy hanging in the balance.

But TROS then pivoted the entire thing to Palpatine and a "Final Order" . . . out of nowhere! The First Order became almost inconsequential, and Kylo was used just to push Rey's story to the finish line (as opposed to the other way around). And we end the saga with Rey Palpatine-Skywalker. I don't get it. Maybe I will someday, but it ain't happening right now.

I'm saying that they didn't ever interact with another until the end of TLJ because that's what the movies say.

Very true. BTW, that scene was a request from Colin Trevorrow that Rian agreed to add. Since Trevorrow wanted Rey and Poe to have a romantic turn in his Ep9, he wanted them to officially meet on screen first.

 

[Khev]

Here's the main question I'm trying to answer: At the end of TROS, what can we say was the point of the ST?

For me it was all about taking care of unfinished business. We got to see the alternate ROTJ where Han died and the original abandoned ST where Luke and his sister face Palpatine in his underground lair (with Rey and Ben filling in the primary roles obviously.)

The first two movies focused on how the fall of Ben Solo destroyed the Skywalker/Solo family and dovetailed into the larger First Order threat.

Well the character of Rey and her lineage/where she fit obviously had equal prominence to what you state above.

They layed out how the Skywalker family had this epilogue to write in order to close the book on their legacy. And, of course, with the fate of the galaxy hanging in the balance.

But TROS then pivoted the entire thing to Palpatine and a "Final Order" . . . out of nowhere! The First Order became almost inconsequential, and Kylo was used just to push Rey's story to the finish line (as opposed to the other way around). And we end the saga with Rey Palpatine-Skywalker. I don't get it.

Structurally it pretty much plays just like the OT for me.

Look what I can do with your quote above:

They layed out how Luke Skywalker had this Hero's Journey to fulfill in order to become a Jedi. And, of course, with the fate of the galaxy hanging in the balance.

But ROTJ then pivoted the entire thing to Palpatine and a "Second Death Star" . . . out of nowhere! The first Death Star became almost inconsequential, and Luke was used just to push Vader's story to the finish line (as opposed to the other way around). And we end the saga with Anakin Skywalker/Vader. I don't get it.

See? I'm not even being funny that's really how the OT plays as well, lol. And truth be told it has always been something that kind of annoyed me about ROTJ. After SW/ESB I remember as a kid being shocked that Luke didn't kill Jabba (Leia did), didn't kill Boba Fett (Han did), didn't blow up the Death Star (Lando did), and didn't kill the Emperor (Vader did.) He was the main hero for two straight movies and then in the finale everybody else got to do all the coolest stuff.

And I don't know if you're aware but prior to the ST there were a lot of complaints about Lucas sidelining Luke in favor of Anakin even as far back as ROTJ (before he really doubled down on that aspect with the PT.)

So for me TROS plays largely the same but also gives me specific narrative beats denied by the OT/PT that I've always wanted to see. Just my take of course and not something that I expect to change anyone's mind with.

 

[chewblacca]

I'm saying that they didn't ever interact with another until the end of TLJ because that's what the movies say.

So because they never interacted they didn’t know who each other was? Like Anakin and General Greivous? They know who they are just never actually seen them? Even though they were literally feet apart from each other at the end of the movie?

 

[ajp4mgs]

For me it was all about taking care of unfinished business. We got to see the alternate ROTJ where Han died and the original abandoned ST where Luke and his sister face Palpatine in his underground lair (with Rey and Ben filling in the primary roles obviously.)

I can see why that appeals to you (and I'm very glad that it does), but it's just too abstract for me. I wanted a continuation of the ST story, and a cohesive way to wrap up the whole saga. I'm not discounting the value to fans like yourself getting to see some of those early conceptual elements play out on screen, but that's just not something I was looking for personally. I wanted the sequel trilogy to have its own story and purpose; justifying its existence in the context of the larger saga.

Well the character of Rey and her lineage/where she fit obviously had equal prominence to what you state above.

Although most people got caught up in Rey lineage, I never saw it as being important to the story. As I've said before, I never saw Mace Windu being powerful in the PT and wondered what his family lineage was. To me, Rey was a Force sensitive character, and that was enough. I saw her more as a plot device to tell the Ben/Kylo story.

See? I'm not even being funny that's really how the OT plays as well, lol. And truth be told it has always been something that kind of annoyed me about ROTJ. After SW/ESB I remember as a kid being shocked that Luke didn't kill Jabba (Leia did), didn't kill Boba Fett (Han did), didn't blow up the Death Star (Lando did), and didn't kill the Emperor (Vader did.) He was the main hero for two straight movies and then in the finale everybody else got to do all the coolest stuff.

And I don't know if you're aware but prior to the ST there were a lot of complaints about Lucas sidelining Luke in favor of Anakin even as far back as ROTJ (before he really doubled down on that aspect with the PT.)

So for me TROS plays largely the same but also gives me specific narrative beats denied by the OT/PT that I've always wanted to see. Just my take of course and not something that I expect to change anyone's mind with.

But things like the second Death Star and Palpatine being the true leader of the Empire were consistent with the setup of ANH and ESB. The main evil presence was still the Empire, and still led by the Emperor (referenced in ANH and appeared in ESB) and Vader. The second Death Star was for the same purpose as the first. Lazy storytelling? Yes! Out of nowhere or not cohesive? I don't think so. TROS introduced main antagonists (Final Order and undead Palpatine) that weren't even hinted at in the first two!

As for Luke not getting the "kills" and more direct glory, I was never bothered by that; neither growing up, nor as an adult. Yoda established very clearly that Jedi weren't supposed to be about glory. Luke embodied that in ROTJ, and I dig it. He became a true Jedi.

The difference is that Luke evolved as a hero, rather than being sidelined. And ESB made it a necessity that the Luke/Vader family dynamic play out in a meaningful way. The trilogy story was defined by the what was revealed in the middle movie. ROTJ played right off of that, as it should've.

I just don't see the sort of structural parallels that you do between the OT and the ST. For me, the OT was cohesive no matter how much of it was made up on the fly. But I think the ST lacks cohesion that it easily could've had. More than anything, the buildup of Kylo and the FO was just dumped so worthlessly. Doesn't work for me. Again, though, I'm glad that one of us enjoyed it; and I hope you continue to enjoy it without diminishing returns. A happy fan is better than no happy fans. And I'm still happy with TFA and especially TLJ. I can just conclude that trilogy in my head anyway.

 

[Khev]

The ST doesn't exist in a vacuum though. It's a continuation of the OT (or PT/OT if you prefer) so there was more than enough setup for not only the Emperor to return but also to turn out to be the phantom puppet master of a proxy threat. And the Final Order wasn't a "new villain" it was just his pet name for his elite legions that he kept in reserve.

 

[ajp4mgs]

The ST doesn't exist in a vacuum though. It's a continuation of the OT (or PT/OT if you prefer) so there was more than enough setup for not only the Emperor to return but also to turn out to be the phantom puppet master of a proxy threat. And the Final Order wasn't a "new villain" it was just his pet name for his elite legions that he kept in reserve.

Yeah, but Palps was dead. His role was wrapped up in ROTJ, and it gave a great climax to the Vader story (especially if you factor in the PT). Bringing his presence back in any way runs the risk of watering that down, if not undoing it altogether.

As for the Final Order, the fact that it existed outside of the knowledge of anyone in the FO is proof enough of how new it was to the story. Kylo didn't know about, Hux didn't know about it, and the audience didn't know about. The only thing I like conceptually is only due to what you explained to me about Palps and Snoke being separate entities: two potentially competing evil factions. Palps had his own army kept in secret, perhaps just in case the FO wouldn't fulfill his wishes.

 

[chewblacca]

It’s like a comedy skit. “Under the noses of the new republic rose a new evil, The First Order! This group manage to amass starships and a whole army that no one knew about! But under the nose of the First Order there was another group even more evil called the Final Order! This group amassed an even bigger army and even more ships within a planet. When the time was right this evil group bursts through the ground to take their place as ruler of the galaxy! But wait here comes a ragtag group of resistance fighters on horses who while galloping allowing the hull of the main ship destroys the army of evil forever.”

 

[Khev]

Yeah, but Palps was dead. His role was wrapped up in ROTJ, and it gave a great climax to the Vader story (especially if you factor in the PT). Bringing his presence back in any way runs the risk of watering that down, if not undoing it altogether.

Yes but that's no different than any sequel that follows a seemingly resolved story and doesn't counter my point that the way Palps was presented really just turns the entire ST into a live-action "Dark Empire" and not something totally out of the blue or unprecedented.

As for the Final Order, the fact that it existed outside of the knowledge of anyone in the FO is proof enough of how new it was to the story. Kylo didn't know about, Hux didn't know about it, and the audience didn't know about. The only thing I like conceptually is only due to what you explained to me about Palps and Snoke being separate entities: two potentially competing evil factions. Palps had his own army kept in secret, perhaps just in case the FO wouldn't fulfill his wishes.

Having a secret Star Destroyer fleet is still no different than having a secret second Death Star. You can say it's silly, or lazy, or whatever, but it's still par for the course and totally consistent with the Palps that we knew from the previous six films. He's always unleashing secret armies and tricks that come as a complete surprise to even those within his own ranks and he has a decades long history of compartmentalizing his troops, officers, apprentices, even entire armies (Separatists vs. Republic) in case he wants to play one against the other.

Again anyone can hate TROS for a hundred different reasons but the fact remains that they did find a way to validly reconcile it with the continuity of all that came before, quite impressively in fact.

 

[YoNoSe]

I don’t know if it’s valid or impressive but they banged on the last piece until it fit. The puzzle is finished, even if one piece is a smashed Cheez It.

 

[Khev]

Fair enough, lol.

 

[ironwez20]

I know you must get tired defending these stupid gymnastics . Seems like each week something else comes out that messes with the ST cannon and you have to explain why it works fine .

 

[jye4ever]

I know you must get tired defending these stupid gymnastics . Seems like each week something else comes out that messes with the ST cannon and you have to explain why it works fine .

But Khev explanation makes perfect sense, to me anyways, so much so that he took ajp near perfect analysis on why TROS doesn?t work as a finale and utterly obliterated his argument by using the saga history as his weapon.

Think of it as ajp is the first death star and Khev is Lukes torpedo lol



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[Khev]

But Khev explanation makes perfect sense, to me anyways, so much so that he took ajp near perfect analysis on why TROS doesn?t work as a finale and utterly obliterated his argument by using the saga history as his weapon.

Think of it as ajp is the first death star and Khev is Lukes torpedo lol

And what they don't get is that you don't even like this movie but you can't resist pushing people's buttons and humoring my takes for your own amusement, lol.