Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Khev]

 

[jye4ever]

You just know KK be nervous now around super boss Iger

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Khev]

The Spirit of Gary Kurtz: "Long have I waited...the power of two [KK and Iger] restores the one."

lol

 

[Khev]

You just know KK be nervous now around super boss Iger

Is he still calling the creative shots over the new guy until his contract is up?

 

[jye4ever]

The Spirit of Gary Kurtz: "Long have I waited...the power of two [KK and Iger] restores the one."

lol

holy crap lol

Is he still calling the creative shots over the new guy until his contract is up?

My sister said her check still says Iger on it lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Khev]

holy crap lol

Shareholders to KK: "These are your final steps (before your ass is kicked to the curb.)"

Lucas: "Make a good trilogy as I once did."

TROS is a success but KK collapses under the pressure, Iger submits his resignation but crawls out of the pit and restores her dignity by allowing her name to appear on Mando, lol.

 

[JAWS]

Thank goodness khev and crew are in the minority.

Minority with regards to what?

 

[ajp4mgs]

Fixed and fair enough. My SW Gospel however is that of 1980 George Lucas, the George who made ESB within the context of a planned future ST that the Disney trilogy actually delivered on.

You've made this reference several times now, and the more I think about it, the more confused I am about what you mean. I'm wondering if you're referring to some story ideas that I'm just not familiar with. If so, I'd love to know about it.

The 1980 George Lucas sequel plans that I'm familiar with would've focused on Luke. One of his main quests at the outset was to find the "other" who would turn out to be his sister (not Leia). He was eventually supposed to become the ultimate Jedi Knight. And the Emperor was supposed to make his *first* appearance in the saga in Episode 9, with Luke being the one who would confront him at the end.

Isn't that what we know about the early 80's version of GL's sequel intentions? And isn't that what he modified and condensed into ROTJ? This is why I'm lost here, Khev: you seem to be suggesting that the ST fulfills that 1980 vision when in reality, ROTJ already gave you the closest thing you'll ever get to it. After ROTJ, that Lucas/Kurtz sequel trilogy would never have been able to materialize. Am I wrong?

As for a sequel trilogy just as a matter of existing, GL kept that option open after ROTJ, even as far back as 1983. But what he said back then was that his prequel story/trilogy was already outlined, whereas any sequels would still have to be written because he had no real sense for what Luke's story would be after ROTJ.

 

[ajp4mgs]

While I agree with that in principle, it ignores the massive contributions - in story, design and other extremely significant creative input - that other artists made to the OT.

While Lucas was in charge, he had strong artistic collaborators on the OT who together contributed as much to what we love, if not more, as Lucas alone did. They challenged him, they pushed him, they brought in bold ideas that Lucas himself would not have created as the sole creative force.

People like Kershner, Kasdan in his arrogant prime, Mollo, McQuarrie, Taylor, Dykstra, Tippett were not just hired guns, they were often temperamental artists or visionaries in their own right. Even Kurtz pushed, challenged and clashed with Lucas and the movie that Kurtz wasn't involved in (fired for that very act of standing up to Lucas,) ROTJ, shows clearly what SW quickly became with Lucas much more in charge.

Lucas didn't have that in the PT - he was pretty much the sole creative force surrounded by yes-men, totally unchallenged in every way - and that was the colossal, history-making mistake. That Lucas himself, and those he carefully chose to surround himself with (almost uniformly non-challenging led by Rick McCallum,) made the assumption that Lucas "created" the OT largely on his own.

In his post, Prime Clone acknowledged upfront that the PT and OT would have to be taken "warts and all." So whatever missteps or failings some of the GL movies had, they did so in keeping with his artistic vision and his desires for how the story would be told. Did he collaborate more in the OT? Of course. But he was always only willing to go with ideas that didn't compromise the main story and vision that he had in mind (back before anyone else came along for the ride).

The buck stopped with George Lucas. You may not like what he did with some (or most) of his movies, but what you got was the story that GL wanted to tell. That's how I think it should work: an artist makes art that's true to genuine inspiration and desire to create. People don't have to like it, but they should respect it.

George knew (and said very clearly) in 1983 that he was going to get roasted for the ewoks and the sappiness of ROTJ. He knew that he'd be accused of "commercialism over art" and "conforming" to audience desires, and he stated as much. But he made clear back then (even before any backlash or criticism had materialized) that he went with what he genuinely wanted his story to be, and stayed true to his storytelling principles for what messages and themes his modern mythology should convey.

He did the same thing with the PT too, irrespective of how much you and I (and many others) hated it. He knew people would dislike or reject certain aspects, but he stayed true to the story he wanted to tell and how he wanted to tell it. I don't blame or resent him for that either. The ST as a whole, on the other hand, turned out to be a story he would *not* have told. So, Prime Clone's point about it being fan fiction is 100% true, IMO.

 

[Khev]

You've made this reference several times now, and the more I think about it, the more confused I am about what you mean. I'm wondering if you're referring to some story ideas that I'm just not familiar with. If so, I'd love to know about it.

The 1980 George Lucas sequel plans that I'm familiar with would've focused on Luke. One of his main quests at the outset was to find the "other" who would turn out to be his sister (not Leia). He was eventually supposed to become the ultimate Jedi Knight. And the Emperor was supposed to make his *first* appearance in the saga in Episode 9, with Luke being the one who would confront him at the end.

Isn't that what we know about the early 80's version of GL's sequel intentions? And isn't that what he modified and condensed into ROTJ?

Yes you're correct on all of the above.

This is why I'm lost here, Khev: you seem to be suggesting that the ST fulfills that 1980 vision when in reality, ROTJ already gave you the closest thing you'll ever get to it. After ROTJ, that Lucas/Kurtz sequel trilogy would never have been able to materialize. Am I wrong?

Well after ROTJ and the many years he waited to make more SW films having that an ST that played out exactly as he and Kurtz initially envisioned became a literal impossibility. Obviously he would have needed to not have Luke confront the Emperor in ROTJ and then made three more films in 86, 89, and 92 with Luke and another actress playing his sister to do that ST "properly."

But that ship sailed pretty much from the get go when he got burned out and decided to close the whole thing with ROTJ. But even he seemed to quickly live to regret it and started trying to salvage certain aspects of those sequels when he signed off on Dark Empire. So given that "life happens" and things evolve I'm totally fine with Disney making a ST that honors the spirit of those original ideas even if they were forced to have other characters standing in for Luke and Leia. Thankfully Luke and Leia were still involved in assisting the "twins in the Force," even to the point of passing down their respective lightsabers (another aspect that George told Mark he planned as far back as 1983) so to me I'm more than satisfied with the end result.

"Okay Khev then why don't you apply your 'life happens' and 'things evolve' perspective to the PT and acknowledge those as canon?"

Simple: They suck, lol.

 

[Khev]

The ST as a whole, on the other hand, turned out to be a story he would *not* have told.

I disagree, see my post above. The current ST is only a story that he wouldn't have told *today* (since he is now way off in Magic School Bus Microbiotic La La Land.) But it's definitely a story that is very close to what he was planning (however briefly) back in 80-82.

So, Prime Clone's point about it being fan fiction is 100% true, IMO.

Also disagree (100%.)

 

[ajp4mgs]

Yes you're correct on all of the above.



Well after ROTJ and the many years he waited to make more SW films having that an ST that played out exactly as he and Kurtz initially envisioned became a literal impossibility. Obviously he would have needed to not have Luke confront the Emperor in ROTJ and then made three more films in 86, 89, and 92 with Luke and another actress playing his sister to do that ST "properly."

Okay, we're in total agreement so far. But this is the part of your point of view that I'm trying to wrap my head around:

But that ship sailed pretty much from the get go when he got burned out and decided to close the whole thing with ROTJ. But even he seemed to quickly live to regret it and started trying to salvage certain aspects of those sequels when he signed off on Dark Empire. So given that "life happens" and things evolve I'm totally fine with Disney making a ST that honors the spirit of those original ideas even if they were forced to have other characters standing in for Luke and Leia. Thankfully Luke and Leia were still involved in assisting the "twins in the Force," even to the point of passing down their respective lightsabers (another aspect that George told Mark he planned as far back as 1983) so to me I'm more than satisfied with the end result.

I'm left with two points of glaring confusion:

1.) Don't you have to de-canonize ROTJ in order to have any reason for those early sequel themes and plot threads to have a purpose for being told on screen? After ROTJ recontextualized "there is another" and the Emperor showdown, that story was already told by the original creator himself (just not in a trilogy format).

and

2.) If you acknowledge that original story ideas were repurposed for ROTJ, but you still wanted a Lucas-inspired sequel, wouldn't the ideas in his ST treatment/outline be what you'd prefer (if anything) after ROTJ? He actually wrote it out in some form or another, so it's not like we'd have to guess what he'd come up with for a post-ROTJ and post-PT sequel trilogy.

"Okay Khev then why don't you apply your 'life happens' and 'things evolve' perspective to the PT and acknowledge those as canon?"

Simple: They suck, lol.

Well yes, they do suck. But that's usually what happens when filmmakers keep extending stories beyond the era that captured the cultural zeitgiest. It usually leads to disappointing results. Even happens in music.

As I stated before, liking the end result shouldn't be a prerequisite for respecting artistic creator intent and authority. No one needs to accept the PT if they don't want to, but we're not gonna be able to pretend that George didn't have most of those story beats mapped out years (even decades) in advance. It was his true vision, for better or worse.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I disagree, see my post above. The current ST is only a story that he wouldn't have told *today* (since he is now way off in Magic School Bus Microbiotic La La Land.) But it's definitely a story that is very close to what he was planning (however briefly) back in 80-82.

Again, though, he *already told* a condensed and reformatted version of that story in ROTJ. Having a new "twins of the Force" and a takedown of the evil Emperor does nothing but undermine (or at least regurgitate) the story that Lucas had already told.

The reason GL would've resorted to "Magic School Bus Microbiotic La La Land" (lol) is because there'd be no point to revisiting the ideas he had already re-formatted and presented on screen more than 3 decades ago. At this point, it's redundant (if not dismissive) of the previous saga ending.

I know that this is just a simple and harmless disagreement, but I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how you're not perceiving either redundancy or downright insult in what TROS decided to do with this trilogy. Yours is the enviable perspective, but I can't seem to navigate a path to adopting it.

Also disagree (100%.)

Alternate versions of what a creator would've done with his IP is literally what fan fiction is.

 

[Prime Clone]

While Lucas was in charge, he had strong artistic collaborators on the OT who together contributed as much to what we love, if not more, as Lucas alone did.

Sorry but that's a step too far. But ajp has already stated my case!

 

[ironwez20]

Minority with regards to what?

Into liking the ST and thinking it wrapped up the story. You guys are in a minority. It?s all good tho. Maybe when this gets retconned people will miss it

 

[Neal136]

Into liking the ST and thinking it wrapped up the story. You guys are in a minority. It?s all good tho. Maybe when this gets retconned people will miss it

You mean of the 10-15 people that post in this thread? Perhaps.

 

[ironwez20]

You mean of the 10-15 people that post in this thread? Perhaps.

I mean you can go anywhere on the internet or talk to any one and they just didn?t like the ST. The only people who talk about it in this thread are 2 people who kept it alive. Nobody else cares or talks about it. Like this is the only place where I see people talk about it. The rest of the world moved on.

Khev and jye prettt much need to bash the PT to make themselves feel better that the ST is garbage . Everybody else in this thread gives them straight facts on why the st is bad but they reply with

? well PT sucks to? lol. Then jaws comes in every now cause he suddenly likes the ending now lol.

Like I understand you like it but bashing the PT to uplift this mess is hilarious. This franchise did a hell of a lot more damage then PT did. And the PT was heavy cgi, horrible dialogue and very boring most of the time

 

[jye4ever]

Again, though, he *already told* a condensed and reformatted version of that story in ROTJ. Having a new "twins of the Force" and a takedown of the evil Emperor does nothing but undermine (or at least regurgitate) the story that Lucas had already told.

The reason GL would've resorted to "Magic School Bus Microbiotic La La Land" (lol) is because there'd be no point to revisiting the ideas he had already re-formatted and presented on screen more than 3 decades ago. At this point, it's redundant (if not dismissive) of the previous saga ending.

I know that this is just a simple and harmless disagreement, but I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how you're not perceiving either redundancy or downright insult in what TROS decided to do with this trilogy. Yours is the enviable perspective, but I can't seem to navigate a path to adopting it.



Alternate versions of what a creator would've done with his IP is literally what fan fiction is.

I don?t see what is so offensive and dismissive of ROTJ because the Emperor returned.

Vader was never originally the chosen one to bring balance to the force anyways but ok Lucas decided on implementing that in the PT, fine.

But oh well evil turned out to be more resilient.

The burden was now placed on the actual Force itself including Anakin and his children again but also his children children AND a Palpatine to confront and defeat this evil.

Balance once again achieved with a Palpatine taking on the Skywalker mantle.

I?ll tell you what is offensive to me.

That Lucas went and put that one on one child murdering creepy eye Anakin ghost in the SE his stare and grin even as a ghost looks like he wants to freaking murder the ewoks lol






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ajp4mgs]

I don?t see what is so offensive and dismissive of ROTJ because the Emperor returned.

Vader was never originally the chosen one to bring balance to the force anyways but ok Lucas decided on implementing that in the PT, fine.

But oh well evil turned out to be more resilient.

The burden was now placed on the actual Force itself including Anakin and his children again but also his children children AND a Palpatine to confront and defeat this evil.

Balance once again achieved with a Palpatine taking on the Skywalker mantle.

Well, "offensive" would probably be too harsh for most people, I admit. But I definitely think "dismissive" is a very fair characterization. Here's why: even if you don't believe that Lucas had any intention of "Chosen One" context being a part of the ending of ROTJ, he certainly had the Emperor's fall at the hands of a Skywalker be the resolution that his saga built up to. We know this not just from him saying that ROTJ was the end, but because that's how he would've ended his sequel trilogy as conceived in the late 70's and/or early's 80's.

Original 9-part plans, or revised "I'm-so-done-with-this-**** ROTJ ending, Palpatine was brought in during the final episode and taken out of the picture by a Skywalker. The Palpatine connection to the Skywalker family breaking was always there. It was a part of the family drama that the whole story was framed around. So, TROS bringing him back undoes that emotional triumph amid that narrative arc. Considering how the whole thing was rebranded as the *Skywalker* Saga, that's a pretty significant thematic alteration.

Saying that ROTJ's ending *wasn't* the way Palpatine officially went out is dismissive in my book (and actually even worse). Plus, it also takes away the impact and resonance of permanency. Now it's just like how comic book resurrections have lessened the original event in those stories and created the "he'll be back" mentality.

I truly don't think GL would've allowed a Palps return after he made the PT. He basically said as much several years ago when he crapped on the EU idea of Palpatine surviving. And to bring him back for Rey to be the one to get that moment of true conflict resolution in the saga . . . I dunno, man; it just doesn't seem earned or appropriate to me. But that's just me, of course. More power to you if you're cool with it for the reasons you stated.

I?ll tell you what is offensive to me.

That Lucas went and put that one on one child murdering creepy eye Anakin ghost in the SE his stare and grin even as a ghost looks like he wants to freaking murder the ewoks lol

 

[Khev]

I'm left with two points of glaring confusion:

1.) Don't you have to de-canonize ROTJ in order to have any reason for those early sequel themes and plot threads to have a purpose for being told on screen?

Obviously not since it's a direct bridge between SW/ESB and the ST and is a worthy piece of entertainment in its own right. It also completes Vader's arc (since I don't care about PT Chosen One mumbo jumbo.)

After ROTJ recontextualized "there is another" and the Emperor showdown, that story was already told by the original creator himself (just not in a trilogy format).

ROTJ provided *a* showdown with the Emperor, but not the final showdown. George never had the twins face him hence leaving the door open for TROS. So similar to Vader getting surprised by Han and defeated at the end of SW only to return with a vengeance now the Emperor gets to return for one last showdown after *he* was defeated by a surprise attack from behind in a previous film.

And I'm not stating this to convince you to like it. Clearly you don't, to the point of dismissing the ST outright. I get it. It's all good.

and

2.) If you acknowledge that original story ideas were repurposed for ROTJ, but you still wanted a Lucas-inspired sequel, wouldn't the ideas in his ST treatment/outline be what you'd prefer (if anything) after ROTJ? He actually wrote it out in some form or another, so it's not like we'd have to guess what he'd come up with for a post-ROTJ and post-PT sequel trilogy.

I would have preferred George's new ST over the Trevorrow script, that's for sure. But ROTJ just lost too much of what "should have been" IMO for me to prefer that they just move on to something else entirely. So the pecking order for me as far as prefence was:

1. "Force twins facing the Emperor/Dark Empire" hybrid (lucky me, woohoo, )
2. George's goofy microbiotic adventure (because why not, lol)



3. Trevorrow script

Well yes, they do suck. But that's usually what happens when filmmakers keep extending stories beyond the era that captured the cultural zeitgiest. It usually leads to disappointing results. Even happens in music.

As I stated before, liking the end result shouldn't be a prerequisite for respecting artistic creator intent and authority. No one needs to accept the PT if they don't want to, but we're not gonna be able to pretend that George didn't have most of those story beats mapped out years (even decades) in advance. It was his true vision, for better or worse.

I'm actually fine with accepting the general "story beats" as kind of a hazy, ambiguous backstory to the OT and ST. I can accept that Palpatine rose to power from Senator to Emperor, that there was a Clone War with clonetroopers and droids, and obviously that Anakin fell to the Dark Side and was defeated by Obi-Wan. So it actually doesn't rub me the wrong way when TLJ Luke mentions Darth Sidious, TROS Palpatine repeats some of his lines from ROTS, or SBD's show up in Mandalorian flashbacks. I just can't accept that the PT as is is actually a true representation of "what really happened." No way. So my head canon excludes them as properly showing what Vader, Fett, Yoda, etc., were really like in their younger years.