Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[ironwez20]

Do you realize that Lucas?s kid who played the young Jedi in ROTS put up more of a fight against the clone troopers than any secondary adult Jedi in the movie that?s how messed up that move is lol


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We barely saw the Jedi fight then tho.

 

[ironwez20]

Okay I've just been joking about your reasons that the PT is somehow better than the ST since honestly it's such a ridiculous notion that it's hard to even humor for the sake of discussion. But I can see that for some of you who watched these as children they really are near and dear to your heart, which on one hand is cool but sad on the other (lol), so I'll address your points a little more seriously (for now, heh heh.)



Honestly stating that the PT is better because people hate it more than they love the ST is really quite bizarre. Intense loathing is more desired than casual enjoyment? Honestly on what planet is that a good thing? I've got to assume that you've *really* adopted the "all news is good news" mindset where if people are talking about how much they hate something it's somehow better than not talking about it but I've literally never heard that used to defend any piece of art (ever) and reading you take that position I can see why. If that's all you've got then of course you're free to to run with it but man, I feel bad that you look to *that* for validation of your own opinion.

What's wrong with simply discussing the merits *of the films themselves.* That's the number one thing I seem to see when it comes to PT apologists. "Well uh people still remember they exist. Well um they sold a lot of toys. Um 500 HT Anakins sold out faster than 10,000 overproduced Finns" (since "sell outs" is a ridiculous measuring stick when we have no idea what the edition sizes were) and so on.

How about we talk about the *writing.* (PT apologists clear the room)
Or the acting? (Fleeing PT fans drop what they're carrying to get away even faster.)
Or the visual effects? (Now they're literally jumping on the hoods of passing cars to avoid the discussion.)
Cinematography?

Writing, acting, visuals. All complete DUDS. Those are just *slightly* important elements of a Star Wars movie wouldn't you say?

Or the bizarre character choices where the Jedi Order practically *pushes* Anakin to the Dark Side, where he instantly joins the Sith at the drop of a hat, and then the whole thing is resolved with nonsensical lightsaber twirling, Jedi getting gunned down without putting up a fight, Yoda and Palpatine flying around like silly cartoons, Obi-Wan winning with a proven tactical non-issue, Padme self-terminating because even motherhood can't convince her to remain in these movies a single second longer and then Darth Vader letting out the most laughable scream in the history of cinema. Yes if burning idiocy into people's brains for decades on end was George's goal then he freaking nailed it across the board.

As for the toys sure they sold but what does that say about the films themselves? Very little actually. Toy sales don't always equate to quality in other media. The original Kenner toys all sold because people wanted to play out the movies at home of course but the disconnect between toys and media occurred very quickly after that. Or are you going to argue that He-Man cartoons are better than Raiders of the Lost Ark (since the former action figures crushed the latter with regard to retail sales.) Or that Bayformer films are somehow better than The Dark Knight trilogy? I think you're well aware that toys are toys and movies are movies and if you want to talk movies then talk movies. Don't run to other made up statistics that have little to no bearing on the discussion at hand.

Heck by your logic Rogue One must be the *worst* Disney SW film of all because guess who I see hanging on pegs in pretty much every store I go into? Jyn Erso. Do you know who has been sold out for months? The entire TROS wave. Believe me, I've looked.

So I can rip on the PT and you can rip on the ST. Such and such is better than such and such, bla bla bla, the circle of internet fanboyism that we've all partaken in for years, some of us decades. And we can go back and forth for as long as it's fun. But at least try and defend the movies you love based on them actually being *movies* and not simply as memorable disasters that live in infamy to this day or as marketing excuses to kickstart new toy lines. I mean if that really is your personal criteria for liking or defending a film or calling it a "success" then yes I'll straight up give you that. The PT *are* more memorable as the disasters they were and their toys did indeed apparently sell more action figures. I would say that the idiotic choice to create wave after wave of pegwarmers like Rose Tico variants, Finn, Hux, and so on are what killed the ST toyline (as the instant sellout of the main TROS figures attests) and not a lack of desire on the part of collectors but that's my take.

But be that as it may I love and will continue to love the ST (yep even TLJ thanks to TROS) each and every time I actually watch and think about the films themselves. I look forward to you possibly responding with what you truly love about the PT, assuming that you can of course, because at the end of the day I do think it's more fun to read and even feed off of the enthusiasm of others than just endlessly bashing things back and forth.

Lol cause you keep saying what?s bad about the PR and how it?s soooooo awful but people bring up how it didn?t destroy Star Wars as much as the ST did . That?s why we bring up toy sales. We told you what we like about the PT and rots . Lol at you bringing up the bashing card when you and jye have been bringing down the Pt to hype of this mess of a franchise. It?s actually funny you keep doing so to elicit a response from pt people. It?s like you really want to bring down the PT cause you know it?s now more accepted then the ST . You can cry and bicker all you want but that?s a fact. Stop wondering why people are comparing the two and bashing the films when you guys are doing the same, we are just comparing and contrasting the film. It?s a discussion.

And no it?s not peg warmers. People don?t resonate with these characters, they don?t like them. They aren?t unique, they have no depth. Get it through your head The writing was awful. The PT was bad, yes, the writing was bad but it still has aspects that people loved, your hatred is in the minority now and so is your love for the ST.

I?ll tell you what I like about rots. The music, the emotion, the fight scenes, the atmosphere. Not perfect but much better executed than all of the ST

And I like how you are trying to diss the PT in writing when the ST rivals the PT in horrible writing it?s not like it?s any better at all.

Dey fly now!

But I don?t wanna fight with you khev. Your my buddy. We just dint see eye to eye here I guess

 

[Khev]

We barely saw the Jedi fight then tho.

Out of curiosity when was the last time you (and TheDucky as well) actually watched ROTS or any PT film straight through from beginning to end in one sitting? Because whenever I do find myself thinking "oh how bad are they really" or I get nostalgic about some aspect of them and then actually *try and watch them* it hits me how bad they are all over again and is truly a soul sucking experience, lol. Whereas I find that it's easy to criticize and even laugh about certain aspects of TLJ but then whenever I watch it I find that it moves at a good clip and is still pretty fun to watch all the way through despite its shortcomings.

So I wonder how much of your opinions are based on what you imagine the PT to be in retrospect compared to what they really are.

 

[ironwez20]

Out of curiosity when was the last time you (and TheDucky as well) actually watched ROTS or any PT film straight through from beginning to end in one sitting? Because whenever I do find myself thinking "oh how bad are they really" or I get nostalgic about some aspect of them and then actually *try and watch them* it hits me how bad they are all over again and is truly a soul sucking experience, lol. Whereas I find that it's easy to criticize and even laugh about certain aspects of TLJ but then whenever I watch it I find that it moves at a good clip and is still pretty fun to watch all the way through despite its shortcomings.

So I wonder how much of your opinions are based on what you imagine the PT to be in retrospect compared to what they really are.

The thing about me is I know the PT is bad. I know it?s awful in places . I?m fine with that. I still love ROTS . The others not so much. You on the other hand seem to be struggling on whether or not to like these films. You jump back in forth. First it was a mess but then tros saved it? Nah come on. I can see through the bad writing and horrible story telling. The PT had a set goal, show anakin turn. Was it executed well? Not really. But you could tell they knew what story they wanted to tell, this was ticking boxes and deviating from what fans wanted . They didn?t know what story they wanted to tell, it?s evident with snoke , there is no way in hell he was gonna be a clone at first.

I just can see through the rushed writing and bad decisions. The PT for all it?s faults tried something new but it didn?t click to well cause GL went wild.

Also I can watch the mustafar fight all day

Sorry khev we just disagree on this man

 

[Khev]

The thing about me is I know the PT is bad. I know it?s awful in places . I?m fine with that. I still love ROTS . The others not so much.

Also I can watch the mustafar fight all day

Nothing wrong with that and more power to ya!

 

[ironwez20]

Nothing wrong with that and more power to ya!

Yea buddy. I?m not trying to fight just debating. Sorry if I come off as an a hole lol

 

[Khev]

Same, lol. We're definitely all friends here.

 

[jye4ever]

The thing about me is I know the PT is bad. I know it?s awful in places . I?m fine with that. I still love ROTS . The others not so much. You on the other hand seem to be struggling on whether or not to like these films. You jump back in forth. First it was a mess but then tros saved it? Nah come on. I can see through the bad writing and horrible story telling. The PT had a set goal, show anakin turn. Was it executed well? Not really. But you could tell they knew what story they wanted to tell, this was ticking boxes and deviating from what fans wanted . They didn?t know what story they wanted to tell, it?s evident with snoke , there is no way in hell he was gonna be a clone at first.

I just can see through the rushed writing and bad decisions. The PT for all it?s faults tried something new but it didn?t click to well cause GL went wild.

Also I can watch the mustafar fight all day

Sorry khev we just disagree on this man

I think that is a very fair analysis.

+ 1 for ironwez lol


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[TheDucky]

Okay I've just been joking about your reasons that the PT is somehow better than the ST since honestly it's such a ridiculous notion that it's hard to even humor for the sake of discussion. But I can see that for some of you who watched these as children they really are near and dear to your heart, which on one hand is cool but sad on the other (lol), so I'll address your points a little more seriously (for now, heh heh.)

Nothing is "sad" about personally enjoying one movie or the other.

Honestly stating that the PT is better because people hate it more than they love the ST is really quite bizarre. Intense loathing is more desired than casual enjoyment? Honestly on what planet is that a good thing? I've got to assume that you've *really* adopted the "all news is good news" mindset where if people are talking about how much they hate something it's somehow better than not talking about it but I've literally never heard that used to defend any piece of art (ever) and reading you take that position I can see why. If that's all you've got then of course you're free to to run with it but man, I feel bad that you look to *that* for validation of your own opinion.

I don't need validation or Jye responding to me to get validation, for my opinions.

And, I don't know what you are going on about.

"You aren?t getting it. Interest... any interest... is indicative of a reaction, positive or negative. There is some passion to want to like it or hate it. The ST doesn?t have that. People saw the movie so they could talk to there buddies at work for a week and then it?s done. There is no interest, no rewatch value, nothing from the ST."

I said the above. You are twisting my words, coming to false conclusions, then hammering home a small portion of a point while feeling bad for me??? When... you addressed literally one word, "negative" in that reply?

It's not all that I've got, but when some of replies are ignored and others are brushed off with jokes, then I'll move on to the next thing.

So, where is the lasting interest in the ST? I can't seem to find it.

Why did Star Wars movies and TV shows get put on hold AFTER the ST? PT comes out and we still get a Clone Wars movie and two Clone Wars shows, one that spanned 7 seasons... because there is INTEREST in the PT.

Why did the 3.75" line, that has existed since the 80s, basically die AFTER the ST? Funny how the peak of the 3.75' line came AFTER the PT and how it's death came AFTER the ST>

Why are there no novels set after TROS? There big multi media event is about events set thousands of years BEFORE the ST. The PT had multiple novels and books post PT.

Why didn't Hot Toys make Poe? Why didn't they make "um 500 HT Poes" to sell out like Anakin then? Not even Poe! A main character in the ST, can not get made! Meanwhile, Hot Toys will be selling a green tentacled jedi that has 1 minute of screen time in three movies because there is INTEREST in the PT.

What is your argument for the clear decline in interest in Star Wars after the ST? You should be thanking the PT for keeping the franchise still going.

What's wrong with simply discussing the merits *of the films themselves.* That's the number one thing I seem to see when it comes to PT apologists. "Well uh people still remember they exist. Well um they sold a lot of toys. Um 500 HT Anakins sold out faster than 10,000 overproduced Finns" (since "sell outs" is a ridiculous measuring stick when we have no idea what the edition sizes were) and so on.

How about we talk about the *writing.* (PT apologists clear the room)
Or the acting? (Fleeing PT fans drop what they're carrying to get away even faster.)
Or the visual effects? (Now they're literally jumping on the hoods of passing cars to avoid the discussion.)
Cinematography?

Writing, acting, visuals. All complete DUDS. Those are just *slightly* important elements of a Star Wars movie wouldn't you say?

Can't have much of a discussion when you say literally everything is bad.

I've already admitted parts of the writing were bad.

What acting was bad? Qui-Gon? Kenobi? Mace? Yoda? Padme? Palpatine? Everything from Anakin? Who was bad? What scenes were so awful?

Are you really knocking the visual effects from a 99/02/05 movie compared to 15/17/19 movies? Most of them are still good. What visual effects are so bad? You should be thanking the PT for advancing the state of film making.

Cinematography?



PT easily passes. Far better than the 2019 video game graphics of TROS Rey vs Palpatine that is pulled right from The Force Unleashed

Or the bizarre character choices where the Jedi Order practically *pushes* Anakin to the Dark Side,

Explain.

where he instantly joins the Sith at the drop of a hat

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

and then the whole thing is resolved with nonsensical lightsaber twirling

I forgot, OT elitists hate lightsaber duels. Instead, they should just hurl rocks at each other?

That doesn't make a movie bad, it just means you didn't get what you wanted. This goes partly for me too in the ST.

Jedi getting gunned down without putting up a fight

Serious question here, when was the last time you watched the movie?

They were shot in the back. Every single one of them. Every. Single. One. The only one strong enough to sense the betrayal was Yoda.

Yoda and Palpatine flying around like silly cartoons

I forgot, only puppet Yoda allowed. Again, that is just you not getting what you wanted. But, that is a testament to just how strong Yoda is in the force. Every fight he is in he uses the force to fight, flip, jump, etc...

Obi-Wan winning with a proven tactical non-issue

The high ground is 100% a real thing dating as far back as Sun Tzu.

Padme self-terminating because even motherhood can't convince her to remain in these movies a single second longer

Dying of heartbreak is a real medical condition. Shock + stress = heart failure. Add in being force choked and going into child labor while seeing the man you loved slaughter children all in the sake of your name.... fully plausible.

and then Darth Vader letting out the most laughable scream in the history of cinema.

Nah. You should the see one it is based off of!



Sounds like Luke is constipated.

Yes if burning idiocy into people's brains for decades on end was George's goal then he freaking nailed it across the board.

The only idiocy was Disney's entire handling and lack of planning of the ST.

As for the toys sure they sold but what does that say about the films themselves? Very little actually. Toy sales don't always equate to quality in other media. The original Kenner toys all sold because people wanted to play out the movies at home of course but the disconnect between toys and media occurred very quickly after that. Or are you going to argue that He-Man cartoons are better than Raiders of the Lost Ark (since the former action figures crushed the latter with regard to retail sales.) Or that Bayformer films are somehow better than The Dark Knight trilogy? I think you're well aware that toys are toys and movies are movies and if you want to talk movies then talk movies. Don't run to other made up statistics that have little to no bearing on the discussion at hand.

Ah, so when we bring up interest in these movies, the original point at hand, we can't use arguments? So, you pick and choose what to believe in the ST and are picking and choosing which arguments are acceptable now?

Heck by your logic Rogue One must be the *worst* Disney SW film of all because guess who I see hanging on pegs in pretty much every store I go into? Jyn Erso. Do you know who has been sold out for months? The entire TROS wave. Believe me, I've looked.

You should check places like BBTS and see the Black Series sales for the ST. Now compare them to the PT.

You'll notice one needs to be marked down to 78% off to sell, while PT is selling at or above retail. Why? INTEREST. People are attached to these characters. You don't see that with the ST.

So I can rip on the PT and you can rip on the ST. Such and such is better than such and such, bla bla bla, the circle of internet fanboyism that we've all partaken in for years, some of us decades. And we can go back and forth for as long as it's fun. But at least try and defend the movies you love based on them actually being *movies* and not simply as memorable disasters that live in infamy to this day or as marketing excuses to kickstart new toy lines. I mean if that really is your personal criteria for liking or defending a film or calling it a "success" then yes I'll straight up give you that. The PT *are* more memorable as the disasters they were and their toys did indeed apparently sell more action figures. I would say that the idiotic choice to create wave after wave of pegwarmers like Rose Tico variants, Finn, Hux, and so on are what killed the ST toyline (as the instant sellout of the main TROS figures attests) and not a lack of desire on the part of collectors but that's my take.

No, what killed the ST toy line is the terrible characters in those movies. Padme, Kenobi, Dooku all sell because they are good characters that people like.

Toys are a microcosms of movies. They help show what is good and what is bad based on fan interest. The reason those toys didn't sell aren't because they are toys, it's because the source material they were based off of were failures to begin with! The characters were failures to beging with. That's why toys are relevant to this discussion. That's why so many of these rot because the interest/quality whatever you want to call it, simply wasn't there for the ST.

Do you realize that Lucas?s kid who played the young Jedi in ROTS put up more of a fight against the clone troopers than any secondary adult Jedi in the movie that?s how messed up that move is lol


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You do realize all the other Jedi were shot in the back with no chance, right?

Out of curiosity when was the last time you (and TheDucky as well) actually watched ROTS or any PT film straight through from beginning to end in one sitting? Because whenever I do find myself thinking "oh how bad are they really" or I get nostalgic about some aspect of them and then actually *try and watch them* it hits me how bad they are all over again and is truly a soul sucking experience, lol. Whereas I find that it's easy to criticize and even laugh about certain aspects of TLJ but then whenever I watch it I find that it moves at a good clip and is still pretty fun to watch all the way through despite its shortcomings.

So I wonder how much of your opinions are based on what you imagine the PT to be in retrospect compared to what they really are.

That's really ironic considering you've admitted to picking and choosing what to believe from the ST novels then retcon all of Snoke with Jye and JAWS trying to piece together how it all makes sense he was Plagueis all along, straight up imagining things that were never stated in the films.

Last time I watched them was three months or so ago. Still as good as the first time I ever watched them. Probably will be re watching them all again this week considering the world right now.

 

[TheDucky]

Just one reason why the ST was so garbage. PT never stooped to these levels.

"The Rise of Skywalker’s opening crawl references an event you could only hear in Fortnite"

https://www.polygon.com/fortnite/2019/12/20/21031513/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-fortnite-opening-crawl-palpatines-message

You know how frigging stupid that is. The BIGGEST plot point in TROS, Palpatine being back, is something we hear in a timed event in a video game and not the movie?

Indefensible.

 

[Khev]

Nothing is "sad" about personally enjoying one movie or the other.




I don't need validation or Jye responding to me to get validation, for my opinions.

And, I don't know what you are going on about.

"You aren?t getting it. Interest... any interest... is indicative of a reaction, positive or negative. There is some passion to want to like it or hate it. The ST doesn?t have that. People saw the movie so they could talk to there buddies at work for a week and then it?s done. There is no interest, no rewatch value, nothing from the ST."

I said the above. You are twisting my words, coming to false conclusions, then hammering home a small portion of a point while feeling bad for me??? When... you addressed literally one word, "negative" in that reply?

It's not all that I've got, but when some of replies are ignored and others are brushed off with jokes, then I'll move on to the next thing.

So, where is the lasting interest in the ST? I can't seem to find it.

Why did Star Wars movies and TV shows get put on hold AFTER the ST? PT comes out and we still get a Clone Wars movie and two Clone Wars shows, one that spanned 7 seasons... because there is INTEREST in the PT.

Why did the 3.75" line, that has existed since the 80s, basically die AFTER the ST? Funny how the peak of the 3.75' line came AFTER the PT and how it's death came AFTER the ST>

Why are there no novels set after TROS? There big multi media event is about events set thousands of years BEFORE the ST. The PT had multiple novels and books post PT.

Why didn't Hot Toys make Poe? Why didn't they make "um 500 HT Poes" to sell out like Anakin then? Not even Poe! A main character in the ST, can not get made! Meanwhile, Hot Toys will be selling a green tentacled jedi that has 1 minute of screen time in three movies because there is INTEREST in the PT.

What is your argument for the clear decline in interest in Star Wars after the ST? You should be thanking the PT for keeping the franchise still going.



Can't have much of a discussion when you say literally everything is bad.

I've already admitted parts of the writing were bad.

What acting was bad? Qui-Gon? Kenobi? Mace? Yoda? Padme? Palpatine? Everything from Anakin? Who was bad? What scenes were so awful?

Are you really knocking the visual effects from a 99/02/05 movie compared to 15/17/19 movies? Most of them are still good. What visual effects are so bad? You should be thanking the PT for advancing the state of film making.

Cinematography?

View attachment 481160

PT easily passes. Far better than the 2019 video game graphics of TROS Rey vs Palpatine that is pulled right from The Force Unleashed



Explain.



"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

View attachment 481161



I forgot, OT elitists hate lightsaber duels. Instead, they should just hurl rocks at each other?

That doesn't make a movie bad, it just means you didn't get what you wanted. This goes partly for me too in the ST.




Serious question here, when was the last time you watched the movie?

They were shot in the back. Every single one of them. Every. Single. One. The only one strong enough to sense the betrayal was Yoda.



I forgot, only puppet Yoda allowed. Again, that is just you not getting what you wanted. But, that is a testament to just how strong Yoda is in the force. Every fight he is in he uses the force to fight, flip, jump, etc...




The high ground is 100% a real thing dating as far back as Sun Tzu.



Dying of heartbreak is a real medical condition. Shock + stress = heart failure. Add in being force choked and going into child labor while seeing the man you loved slaughter children all in the sake of your name.... fully plausible.




Nah. You should the see one it is based off of!



Sounds like Luke is constipated.



The only idiocy was Disney's entire handling and lack of planning of the ST.



Ah, so when we bring up interest in these movies, the original point at hand, we can't use arguments? So, you pick and choose what to believe in the ST and are picking and choosing which arguments are acceptable now?



You should check places like BBTS and see the Black Series sales for the ST. Now compare them to the PT.

You'll notice one needs to be marked down to 78% off to sell, while PT is selling at or above retail. Why? INTEREST. People are attached to these characters. You don't see that with the ST.



No, what killed the ST toy line is the terrible characters in those movies. Padme, Kenobi, Dooku all sell because they are good characters that people like.

Toys are a microcosms of movies. They help show what is good and what is bad based on fan interest. The reason those toys didn't sell aren't because they are toys, it's because the source material they were based off of were failures to begin with! The characters were failures to beging with. That's why toys are relevant to this discussion. That's why so many of these rot because the interest/quality whatever you want to call it, simply wasn't there for the ST.




You do realize all the other Jedi were shot in the back with no chance, right?




That's really ironic considering you've admitted to picking and choosing what to believe from the ST novels then retcon all of Snoke with Jye and JAWS trying to piece together how it all makes sense he was Plagueis all along, straight up imagining things that were never stated in the films.

Last time I watched them was three months or so ago. Still as good as the first time I ever watched them. Probably will be re watching them all again this week considering the world right now.

The prequels suck, lol.

Tell 'im ironwez.

 

[ajp4mgs]

How about this: the PT and ST both suck, but for entirely different reasons.

The PT added story context to provide more impact to what played out in the OT, but failed so horribly in filmmaking that whatever benefit the added story context could've had was diminished by the awful execution.

The ST excelled at what the PT failed in (acting, dialogue, effects, not feeling like a kids' cartoon, etc.), but didn't have any added story value to offer the saga because it was nothing more than a shoddily-planned cash grab.

Lots of OT fans feel that the PT diminished a major character (Vader) by turning Anakin into a whiny piece of ****. And other characters weren't done any favors either (Threepio being much lamer, Artoo flying around or doing Three Stooges gags, Yoda doing a Ninja Turtle impersonation, and Boba Fett being a lame clone).

And lots of OT fans feel that the ST took a dump on major OT characters (regressing Han and having him ditch his family, having Luke exile himself for having failed as an uncle and with a new Jedi Order, and turning Leia into someone who couldn't keep her family or the New Republic from collapsing from within).

What's the point of defending a trilogy by whatever metric suits your argument (be it cultural impact, toy sales, box office, or technical merits) if you can't identify how it added value to the *story* that Star Wars was built on (the OT)?

Neither trilogy added anything to the original movies without also diminishing aspects of them to even greater degrees. So, both trilogies suck equally . . . from a certain point of view.

 

[TheDucky]

The prequels suck, lol.

Tell 'im ironwez.

“It's not all that I've got, but when some of the replies are ignored and others are brushed off with jokes, then I'll move on to the next thing.”

You and Jye have fun in here.

 

[jye4ever]

How about this: the PT and ST both suck, but for entirely different reasons.

The PT added story context to provide more impact to what played out in the OT, but failed so horribly in filmmaking that whatever benefit the added story context could've had was diminished by the awful execution.

The ST excelled at what the PT failed in (acting, dialogue, effects, not feeling like a kids' cartoon, etc.), but didn't have any added story value to offer the saga because it was nothing more than a shoddily-planned cash grab.

Lots of OT fans feel that the PT diminished a major character (Vader) by turning Anakin into a whiny piece of ****. And other characters weren't done any favors either (Threepio being much lamer, Artoo flying around or doing Three Stooges gags, Yoda doing a Ninja Turtle impersonation, and Boba Fett being a lame clone).

And lots of OT fans feel that the ST took a dump on major OT characters (regressing Han and having him ditch his family, having Luke exile himself for having failed as an uncle and with a new Jedi Order, and turning Leia into someone who couldn't keep her family or the New Republic from collapsing from within).

What's the point of defending a trilogy by whatever metric suits your argument (be it cultural impact, toy sales, box office, or technical merits) if you can't identify how it added value to the *story* that Star Wars was built on (the OT)?

Neither trilogy added anything to the original movies without also diminishing aspects of them to even greater degrees. So, both trilogies suck equally . . . from a certain point of view.

Well said ajp it is settled then....

ST > PT!




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[Khev]

“It's not all that I've got, but when some of the replies are ignored and others are brushed off with jokes, then I'll move on to the next thing.”

You and Jye have fun in here.

Well it is the point isn't it?

I've got my worthy follow-up trilogy to the OT and you have your worthy prequel trilogy. Enjoy.

 

[Khev]

Well said ajp it is settled then....

ST > PT!

Glad to see that he finally came around.

 

[jye4ever]

Glad to see that he finally came around.

I had no idea this flashed on screen when Kylo touched Vaders helmet.

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[Khev]

Yep I didn't notice the first time either until someone mentioned wanting a pupilless Empress Rey figure and I was all "say what???" lol And she's sitting on the throne.

Oh and Abrams himself confirmed on the TROS doc that she's Palpatine's literal granddaughter. So the movie and director/writer are both in sync. The book is wrong about her lineage or if you want to put it another way provides an alternate canon on that aspect of the story. The movie is the movie and the book is the book.

 

[JAWS]

Okay I've just been joking about your reasons that the PT is somehow better than the ST since honestly it's such a ridiculous notion that it's hard to even humor for the sake of discussion. But I can see that for some of you who watched these as children they really are near and dear to your heart, which on one hand is cool but sad on the other (lol), so I'll address your points a little more seriously (for now, heh heh.)



Honestly stating that the PT is better because people hate it more than they love the ST is really quite bizarre. Intense loathing is more desired than casual enjoyment? Honestly on what planet is that a good thing? I've got to assume that you've *really* adopted the "all news is good news" mindset where if people are talking about how much they hate something it's somehow better than not talking about it but I've literally never heard that used to defend any piece of art (ever) and reading you take that position I can see why. If that's all you've got then of course you're free to to run with it but man, I feel bad that you look to *that* for validation of your own opinion.

What's wrong with simply discussing the merits *of the films themselves.* That's the number one thing I seem to see when it comes to PT apologists. "Well uh people still remember they exist. Well um they sold a lot of toys. Um 500 HT Anakins sold out faster than 10,000 overproduced Finns" (since "sell outs" is a ridiculous measuring stick when we have no idea what the edition sizes were) and so on.

How about we talk about the *writing.* (PT apologists clear the room)
Or the acting? (Fleeing PT fans drop what they're carrying to get away even faster.)
Or the visual effects? (Now they're literally jumping on the hoods of passing cars to avoid the discussion.)
Cinematography?

Writing, acting, visuals. All complete DUDS. Those are just *slightly* important elements of a Star Wars movie wouldn't you say?

Or the bizarre character choices where the Jedi Order practically *pushes* Anakin to the Dark Side, where he instantly joins the Sith at the drop of a hat, and then the whole thing is resolved with nonsensical lightsaber twirling, Jedi getting gunned down without putting up a fight, Yoda and Palpatine flying around like silly cartoons, Obi-Wan winning with a proven tactical non-issue, Padme self-terminating because even motherhood can't convince her to remain in these movies a single second longer and then Darth Vader letting out the most laughable scream in the history of cinema. Yes if burning idiocy into people's brains for decades on end was George's goal then he freaking nailed it across the board.

As for the toys sure they sold but what does that say about the films themselves? Very little actually. Toy sales don't always equate to quality in other media. The original Kenner toys all sold because people wanted to play out the movies at home of course but the disconnect between toys and media occurred very quickly after that. Or are you going to argue that He-Man cartoons are better than Raiders of the Lost Ark (since the former action figures crushed the latter with regard to retail sales.) Or that Bayformer films are somehow better than The Dark Knight trilogy? I think you're well aware that toys are toys and movies are movies and if you want to talk movies then talk movies. Don't run to other made up statistics that have little to no bearing on the discussion at hand.

Heck by your logic Rogue One must be the *worst* Disney SW film of all because guess who I see hanging on pegs in pretty much every store I go into? Jyn Erso. Do you know who has been sold out for months? The entire TROS wave. Believe me, I've looked.

So I can rip on the PT and you can rip on the ST. Such and such is better than such and such, bla bla bla, the circle of internet fanboyism that we've all partaken in for years, some of us decades. And we can go back and forth for as long as it's fun. But at least try and defend the movies you love based on them actually being *movies* and not simply as memorable disasters that live in infamy to this day or as marketing excuses to kickstart new toy lines. I mean if that really is your personal criteria for liking or defending a film or calling it a "success" then yes I'll straight up give you that. The PT *are* more memorable as the disasters they were and their toys did indeed apparently sell more action figures. I would say that the idiotic choice to create wave after wave of pegwarmers like Rose Tico variants, Finn, Hux, and so on are what killed the ST toyline (as the instant sellout of the main TROS figures attests) and not a lack of desire on the part of collectors but that's my take.

But be that as it may I love and will continue to love the ST (yep even TLJ thanks to TROS) each and every time I actually watch and think about the films themselves. I look forward to you possibly responding with what you truly love about the PT, assuming that you can of course, because at the end of the day I do think it's more fun to read and even feed off of the enthusiasm of others than just endlessly bashing things back and forth.

****ing Brutal.....

 

[aussiebottt]

Out of curiosity when was the last time you (and TheDucky as well) actually watched ROTS or any PT film straight through from beginning to end in one sitting? Because whenever I do find myself thinking "oh how bad are they really" or I get nostalgic about some aspect of them and then actually *try and watch them* it hits me how bad they are all over again and is truly a soul sucking experience, lol. Whereas I find that it's easy to criticize and even laugh about certain aspects of TLJ but then whenever I watch it I find that it moves at a good clip and is still pretty fun to watch all the way through despite its shortcomings.

So I wonder how much of your opinions are based on what you imagine the PT to be in retrospect compared to what they really are.

I watched ROTS a few weeks ago. I've lost count of the number of times I have watched the PT from start to finish.So they are all fairly fresh in my mind.
What's to love? Great music, cool characters, great fight scenes, seeing the universe pre-empire.
Nothing but nothing from the ST stands out for me. The characters are boring, there was nothing exciting with the music. The story was disjointed, the main villain (Kylo Ren) was lame[I mean let's face it he looks like someone you would find in a library rather than the leader of an evil cult], the supporting villain (Snoke) showed potential but was under utilised, the fight scenes were boring. That's why the ST willl be forgotten fairly quickly.

It's funny how people need documentaries and novelisations to connect the dots and are picking and choosing little tid bits to fit in with their head canon because the ST did such a poor job of that as a trilogy. The PT on the other hand told a story and told it well. No further explanation was required. But we got the excellent Clone Wars and Rebels series because the PT fuelled a massive interest in that time period in the fandom.