Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Asta]

All this Vader talk... that he didn't do much etc.

Well, Star Wars obviously owes much of its origin to the classic cliffhanger serials that Lucas watched as a kid.

The creation of Vader likewise owes something to The Lightning, the main villain in the Republic serial, The Fighting Devil Dogs (1938).

Those old masked villains spent much of the time giving orders to their minions, scheming and setting traps for the heroes and heroines. They menaced civilization at large by their very existence, in their quest for secret formulas, super weapons or even world domination itself.




(The Lightning also had a flying wing, incorporating stock footage from the 1937 D ick Tracy serial. Quite a few scenes from the 1937-1941 D ick Tracy serials ended up in the Indiana Jones movies).

It's Vader's idea to let the rebels go - which leads the Death Star right to the rebel base, and brings the Empire almost to total victory.

File that under 'setting traps for the heroes'.

 

[e30ernest]

 

[Khev]

TROS > EG

Tell 'em JAWS.

 

[ironwez20]

Lol..... Capt America picking up Thors hammer beats...... huh sheesh I don't think TRos had any stand out moments at all. Aside from I am the jedi but that was so cringeworthy.

 

[JAWS]

TROS > EG

Tell 'em JAWS.

In so many ways!!!!

 

[TaliBane]

I talked about ANH, but people had mentioned Vader in ESB as being particularly weak as a villain - again, let the kid in 1980 have his say...

Vader was the guy - now indisputably in charge and looking shiny and cooler for it (the grimy thug has been promoted in more ways than one) - who walks up and says with 100% certainty he knew the rebels were on Hoth - like he magically "sensed" it, even if the information at hand didn't prove it. And he was right. Oh, and he had the most badass ride of the whole Empire - this huge arrowhead shaped spaceship (called Executor,) and he doesn't hang with anyone - he's this scary loner that everyone onboard is terrified of, watching him leave rooms as if they're relieved he didn't kill them.

Vader's sensing of this meant the Empire had found the rebel base. Had Han not investigated the probe droid and it had self destructed without that contact, Vader's actions could have led to a surprise attack that would have wiped out the rebellion.

Vader is obviously more ruthless toward Imperial underlings in ESB, killing them one after another for stuff that we'd think should just be a demotion or something. And he does it with either raging threats or that sweet Vader sarcasm - "apology accepted." Like he takes pleasure in it. One he even kills seemingly from quite a distance away, upping his powers in our mind - Ozzel's killed seemingly hundreds of feet from Vader, not just across the room like in ANH.

Vader also wastes no time in getting to the Hoth battlefield - his hologram with Veers basically proves that Vader is on the first ship to land once the shield generator is down, and he's like the second or third person to enter the rebel base. While Han gets away, it's only just barely. Had Vader arrived just a minute or two earlier, it's likely he would have captured the Falcon and all those aboard.

So he starts the close chase and when his officer says "asteroid field" like "we can't..." Vader says "yes we do." Leading these huge ships into a super-dangerous chase through an asteroid field, which blows up their ships and creates chaos and mass death for the Empire. Vader's the spirit that drives that chase - with both star destroyers and TIEs getting pulverized, thousands dying, solely because he said "we continue" and importantly, nobody says no to him. They beg him - "Considering the amount of damage we've sustained, they must have been destroyed" and he says "nope - they are alive" and commands them to keep going.

Then he's bowing before a hologram of this cloaked monkey-eyes guy we know nothing about, who seems to know a lot about what we have seen - Luke, the force - suddenly setting up how super-important/possibly powerful Luke is, but Vader also promising that - regardless - he will kill Luke if he won't join them.

Then on Dagobah Vader appears in the cave with snakes and hissing lizards, which is like a dream/nightmare, but not - Luke sees it and Yoda seems to sense it. Was Vader really there in some way, or did he controlling or sensing it? Did he place Luke's face in the Vader helmet, or did Yoda? We didn't know. At this point he was supernatural, or connected to something supernatural, but either way it was super evil.

And then Vader before Fett and all the bounty hunters, these scary looking people bring huge rifles onboard a star destroyer and yet Vader confidently strides around right in front of them, in charge, even warning the baddest one and getting up in his face. And you can see that the bounty hunters were all Vader's idea by Piett's reaction, not Imperial procedure at all - his own men failed, so he went to scummy hunters because he knew they could deliver. It says that Vader is as much like those scumbag hunters as he is a member of the Empire.

And they do - Vader's bold, unconventional (ie not Imperial protocol) idea pays off, just like finding the rebel base on Yavin in ANH.

The next you see Vader he's side by side with Fett, having arrived on Bespin the day before and forced the whole deal on Lando. Vader gets everything now and he's all gleeful sarcastic again, inviting them to sit down to a meal with him. And when Han, the most badass gunslinger in the galaxy, draws and shoots, Vader literally just puts up his hand to block the blasts, then tugs the gun into his hand. No lightsabers or bodyguards needed. Vader barely lifts a finger. Our badass Han is humiliated, and in front of Leia and Chewy.

Meanhwile, Yoda and Ben are begging Luke not to face Vader - because he's so dangerous. So we're REALLY worried about Luke now, not just his life but he might fall under that Vader magic from the cave and become somehow evil himself. That whole "join us or die."

And to draw in Luke, Vader literally tortures Han. Not behind a hissing door like with Leia in ANH, but Han screaming and broken over a torture device (later he literally has to be carried to his cell) - right in front of us - as Vader watches just a few feet away, seeming to enjoy it. Meanwhile he's clear with Fett and Lando who's boss, both having to back down even as they try to stand up to Vader - Vader threatening Lando over and over.

And for Luke, Vader's idea is to freeze him in metal to transport him to that evil hooded monkey-eyed guy we barely know but is evil as ****. It doesn't get much more brutal than that (he calls Luke a "prize" for the Emperor) - and, not even knowing if a human can survive it, he tests it on Han, saying to Fett they'll "compensate" him if Han doesn't survive - again, pretty brutal. Like Han's a piece of meat.

And then in the showdown, Vader majorly hands Luke's *** to him, leaving our hero Luke in shape that traumatized all us kids - bloody, bruised, handless, broken, then.... he drops that daddy bomb. Luke does the best he can (knicks Vader's shoulder, does a cool jump) but Vader gets tired of playing with the mouse, lowers his saber and just uses his mind to pound Luke with heavy equipment and sends him through a window. There's also that great moment where Vader "flies" down from the carbon freeze chamber like this black raven, cape blowing.

Even as Luke is rescued, Vader again surrounds them and then talks daddy again - with his mind, directly into Luke's mind (like this guy's powers are getting scary - he can talk inside your head from a mile away) - even as Luke's got a medical stump where his hand used to be. They get away, but only because again, things beyond Vader's control (Vader smartly thought to deactivate the hyperdrive) save the day.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I love Vader in ESB, so this is purely for the laughs... SEE ALL-CAPS FOR RESPONSES inside Talibane's post below

I talked about ANH, but people had mentioned Vader in ESB as being particularly weak as a villain - again, let the kid in 1980 have his say...

Vader was the guy - now indisputably in charge and looking shiny and cooler for it (the grimy thug has been promoted in more ways than one) - who walks up and says with 100% certainty he knew the rebels were on Hoth - like he magically "sensed" it, even if the information at hand didn't prove it. And he was right. Oh, and he had the most badass ride of the whole Empire - this huge arrowhead shaped spaceship (called Executor,) and he doesn't hang with anyone - he's this scary loner that everyone onboard is terrified of, watching him leave rooms as if they're relieved he didn't kill them.

TALK ABOUT FAILING UPWARDS - NO PUNISHMENT FOR DESTROYING THE DEATH STAR?

Vader's sensing of this meant the Empire had found the rebel base. Had Han not investigated the probe droid and it had self destructed without that contact, Vader's actions could have led to a surprise attack that would have wiped out the rebellion.

SO VADER'S PROBES FAILED

Vader is obviously more ruthless toward Imperial underlings in ESB, killing them one after another for stuff that we'd think should just be a demotion or something. And he does it with either raging threats or that sweet Vader sarcasm - "apology accepted." Like he takes pleasure in it. One he even kills seemingly from quite a distance away, upping his powers in our mind - Ozzel's killed seemingly hundreds of feet from Vader, not just across the room like in ANH.

LIKE TRUMP, HE SURROUNDS HIMSELF WITH ONLY YES-MEN

Vader also wastes no time in getting to the Hoth battlefield - his hologram with Veers basically proves that Vader is on the first ship to land once the shield generator is down, and he's like the second or third person to enter the rebel base. While Han gets away, it's only just barely. Had Vader arrived just a minute or two earlier, it's likely he would have captured the Falcon and all those aboard.

AND YET HE FAILED AGAIN

So he starts the close chase and when his officer says "asteroid field" like "we can't..." Vader says "yes we do." Leading these huge ships into a super-dangerous chase through an asteroid field, which blows up their ships and creates chaos and mass death for the Empire. Vader's the spirit that drives that chase - with both star destroyers and TIEs getting pulverized, thousands dying, solely because he said "we continue" and importantly, nobody says no to him. They beg him - "Considering the amount of damage we've sustained, they must have been destroyed" and he says "nope - they are alive" and commands them to keep going.

RACKING UP YET ANOTHER EXPENSIVE IMPERIAL EXPENSE BILL

Then he's bowing before a hologram of this cloaked monkey-eyes guy we know nothing about, who seems to know a lot about what we have seen - Luke, the force - suddenly setting up how super-important/possibly powerful Luke is, but Vader also promising that - regardless - he will kill Luke if he won't join them.

AGAIN, FORESHADOW OF A FAILURE

Then on Dagobah Vader appears in the cave with snakes and hissing lizards, which is like a dream/nightmare, but not - Luke sees it and Yoda seems to sense it. Was Vader really there in some way, or did he controlling or sensing it? Did he place Luke's face in the Vader helmet, or did Yoda? We didn't know. At this point he was supernatural, or connected to something supernatural, but either way it was super evil.

THIS WASN'T VADER AT ALL

And then Vader before Fett and all the bounty hunters, these scary looking people bring huge rifles onboard a star destroyer and yet Vader confidently strides around right in front of them, in charge, even warning the baddest one and getting up in his face. And you can see that the bounty hunters were all Vader's idea by Piett's reaction, not Imperial procedure at all - his own men failed, so he went to scummy hunters because he knew they could deliver. It says that Vader is as much like those scumbag hunters as he is a member of the Empire.

VADER THROWING MORE GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD

And they do - Vader's bold, unconventional (ie not Imperial protocol) idea pays off, just like finding the rebel base on Yavin in ANH.

AT THE EXPENSE OF THE DEATH STAR

The next you see Vader he's side by side with Fett, having arrived on Bespin the day before and forced the whole deal on Lando. Vader gets everything now and he's all gleeful sarcastic again, inviting them to sit down to a meal with him. And when Han, the most badass gunslinger in the galaxy, draws and shoots, Vader literally just puts up his hand to block the blasts, then tugs the gun into his hand. No lightsabers or bodyguards needed. Vader barely lifts a finger. Our badass Han is humiliated, and in front of Leia and Chewy.

OK - THIS IS ABSOLUTELY A BAD ASS SCENE - CAN'T EVEN MAKE A JOKE... ALTHOUGH HOW DOES VADER DINE WITH THEM?

Meanhwile, Yoda and Ben are begging Luke not to face Vader - because he's so dangerous. So we're REALLY worried about Luke now, not just his life but he might fall under that Vader magic from the cave and become somehow evil himself. That whole "join us or die."

THIS IS ALL ABOUT LUKE'S FAILURE... WHICH IS A WHOLE OTHER THING

And to draw in Luke, Vader literally tortures Han. Not behind a hissing door like with Leia in ANH, but Han screaming and broken over a torture device (later he literally has to be carried to his cell) - right in front of us - as Vader watches just a few feet away, seeming to enjoy it. Meanwhile he's clear with Fett and Lando who's boss, both having to back down even as they try to stand up to Vader - Vader threatening Lando over and over.

THE MAN PICKING ON THE LITTLE GUY... DOES NOT MAKE YOU BIGGER.

And for Luke, Vader's idea is to freeze him in metal to transport him to that evil hooded monkey-eyed guy we barely know but is evil as ****. It doesn't get much more brutal than that (he calls Luke a "prize" for the Emperor) - and, not even knowing if a human can survive it, he tests it on Han, saying to Fett they'll "compensate" him if Han doesn't survive - again, pretty brutal. Like Han's a piece of meat.

HE KEEPS HIS PROMISE TO FETT.... WEAK MOVE FOR A BAD ASS VILLAIN. JUST KILL FETT.

And then in the showdown, Vader majorly hands Luke's *** to him, leaving our hero Luke in shape that traumatized all us kids - bloody, bruised, handless, broken, then.... he drops that daddy bomb. Luke does the best he can (knicks Vader's shoulder, does a cool jump) but Vader gets tired of playing with the mouse, lowers his saber and just uses his mind to pound Luke with heavy equipment and sends him through a window. There's also that great moment where Vader "flies" down from the carbon freeze chamber like this black raven, cape blowing.

UNTIL HE COUGHS FROM GETTING A LITTLE STEAM BLOWN AT HIM, AND THEN MOMENTS LATER FALLS BACKWARD OFF THE PLATFORM

Even as Luke is rescued, Vader again surrounds them and then talks daddy again - with his mind, directly into Luke's mind (like this guy's powers are getting scary - he can talk inside your head from a mile away) - even as Luke's got a medical stump where his hand used to be. They get away, but only because again, things beyond Vader's control (Vader smartly thought to deactivate the hyperdrive) save the day.

VADER BEGGING. SAD.

 

[jye4ever]

I talked about ANH, but people had mentioned Vader in ESB as being particularly weak as a villain - again, let the kid in 1980 have his say...

Vader was the guy - now indisputably in charge and looking shiny and cooler for it (the grimy thug has been promoted in more ways than one) - who walks up and says with 100% certainty he knew the rebels were on Hoth - like he magically "sensed" it, even if the information at hand didn't prove it. And he was right. Oh, and he had the most badass ride of the whole Empire - this huge arrowhead shaped spaceship (called Executor,) and he doesn't hang with anyone - he's this scary loner that everyone onboard is terrified of, watching him leave rooms as if they're relieved he didn't kill them.

Vader's sensing of this meant the Empire had found the rebel base. Had Han not investigated the probe droid and it had self destructed without that contact, Vader's actions could have led to a surprise attack that would have wiped out the rebellion.

Vader is obviously more ruthless toward Imperial underlings in ESB, killing them one after another for stuff that we'd think should just be a demotion or something. And he does it with either raging threats or that sweet Vader sarcasm - "apology accepted." Like he takes pleasure in it. One he even kills seemingly from quite a distance away, upping his powers in our mind - Ozzel's killed seemingly hundreds of feet from Vader, not just across the room like in ANH.

Vader also wastes no time in getting to the Hoth battlefield - his hologram with Veers basically proves that Vader is on the first ship to land once the shield generator is down, and he's like the second or third person to enter the rebel base. While Han gets away, it's only just barely. Had Vader arrived just a minute or two earlier, it's likely he would have captured the Falcon and all those aboard.

So he starts the close chase and when his officer says "asteroid field" like "we can't..." Vader says "yes we do." Leading these huge ships into a super-dangerous chase through an asteroid field, which blows up their ships and creates chaos and mass death for the Empire. Vader's the spirit that drives that chase - with both star destroyers and TIEs getting pulverized, thousands dying, solely because he said "we continue" and importantly, nobody says no to him. They beg him - "Considering the amount of damage we've sustained, they must have been destroyed" and he says "nope - they are alive" and commands them to keep going.

Then he's bowing before a hologram of this cloaked monkey-eyes guy we know nothing about, who seems to know a lot about what we have seen - Luke, the force - suddenly setting up how super-important/possibly powerful Luke is, but Vader also promising that - regardless - he will kill Luke if he won't join them.

Then on Dagobah Vader appears in the cave with snakes and hissing lizards, which is like a dream/nightmare, but not - Luke sees it and Yoda seems to sense it. Was Vader really there in some way, or did he controlling or sensing it? Did he place Luke's face in the Vader helmet, or did Yoda? We didn't know. At this point he was supernatural, or connected to something supernatural, but either way it was super evil.

And then Vader before Fett and all the bounty hunters, these scary looking people bring huge rifles onboard a star destroyer and yet Vader confidently strides around right in front of them, in charge, even warning the baddest one and getting up in his face. And you can see that the bounty hunters were all Vader's idea by Piett's reaction, not Imperial procedure at all - his own men failed, so he went to scummy hunters because he knew they could deliver. It says that Vader is as much like those scumbag hunters as he is a member of the Empire.

And they do - Vader's bold, unconventional (ie not Imperial protocol) idea pays off, just like finding the rebel base on Yavin in ANH.

The next you see Vader he's side by side with Fett, having arrived on Bespin the day before and forced the whole deal on Lando. Vader gets everything now and he's all gleeful sarcastic again, inviting them to sit down to a meal with him. And when Han, the most badass gunslinger in the galaxy, draws and shoots, Vader literally just puts up his hand to block the blasts, then tugs the gun into his hand. No lightsabers or bodyguards needed. Vader barely lifts a finger. Our badass Han is humiliated, and in front of Leia and Chewy.

Meanhwile, Yoda and Ben are begging Luke not to face Vader - because he's so dangerous. So we're REALLY worried about Luke now, not just his life but he might fall under that Vader magic from the cave and become somehow evil himself. That whole "join us or die."

And to draw in Luke, Vader literally tortures Han. Not behind a hissing door like with Leia in ANH, but Han screaming and broken over a torture device (later he literally has to be carried to his cell) - right in front of us - as Vader watches just a few feet away, seeming to enjoy it. Meanwhile he's clear with Fett and Lando who's boss, both having to back down even as they try to stand up to Vader - Vader threatening Lando over and over.

And for Luke, Vader's idea is to freeze him in metal to transport him to that evil hooded monkey-eyed guy we barely know but is evil as ****. It doesn't get much more brutal than that (he calls Luke a "prize" for the Emperor) - and, not even knowing if a human can survive it, he tests it on Han, saying to Fett they'll "compensate" him if Han doesn't survive - again, pretty brutal. Like Han's a piece of meat.

And then in the showdown, Vader majorly hands Luke's *** to him, leaving our hero Luke in shape that traumatized all us kids - bloody, bruised, handless, broken, then.... he drops that daddy bomb. Luke does the best he can (knicks Vader's shoulder, does a cool jump) but Vader gets tired of playing with the mouse, lowers his saber and just uses his mind to pound Luke with heavy equipment and sends him through a window. There's also that great moment where Vader "flies" down from the carbon freeze chamber like this black raven, cape blowing.

Even as Luke is rescued, Vader again surrounds them and then talks daddy again - with his mind, directly into Luke's mind (like this guy's powers are getting scary - he can talk inside your head from a mile away) - even as Luke's got a medical stump where his hand used to be. They get away, but only because again, things beyond Vader's control (Vader smartly thought to deactivate the hyperdrive) save the day.

Super epic post great read great job!

Yup Vader projecting death onto Ozzel from a distance is why elements in the ST didn?t cause me to rage like others, I am a man who has a fine taste of history lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jye4ever]

I love Vader in ESB, so this is purely for the laughs... SEE ALL-CAPS FOR RESPONSES inside Talibane's post below

Welcome to corporate america where failing up requires an MBA.

Vader is the CEO of Yahoo lol

Also applies to school superintendents just swap MBA with PHD.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TheDucky]

I think the one thing you are missing Ducky is that Vader is in a position of Authority. Because he is in charge he didn't have to do things on his own. We as an audience understand that.

That's not the Vader I grew to know and envision though. But, I think that's from me reading books and comics, which I don't think you really follow if I remember correctly. Just see me avatar, I guess the Vader you choose to see depends on the material you read and see.

I agree that Ben gives up and allows himself to become one with the force (Vader does not even hit the killing blow) but I tend to think that Vader would have won that battle. Maybe not.. He didn't win the first time

Having said that.. Back when a lot of the folks viewed SW for the very first time... Everyone still contributed Bens death to Vader. Hence adding to his "greatest villain of all time memories" Hell before PT and novels.. I thought Ben gave himself up because he knew he couldn't win.

Good point.

I think you mean Allows Leia, Han, and Luke to escape so the empire can find the rebel base.

True.

Killing Luke was ever part of his agenda. He wanted to capture him and turn him for his own agenda. If he wanted to kill Luke or his friends it obviously would have been very easy for him to do. This goes back to a statement I made about Vader not being a black and White Villain but one with Layers.. He does not want to kill Luke. Nor does her want to kill Leia and Han as he wants to use them to get to Luke.

I don't really know why I included the kill part

My interpretation of Vader is someone who is conflicted (just see my avatar )

I agree. I don't think he ever had any intentions of killing his son once he knew who Luke was. Even if he couldn't have turned him, I really don't think he would have been able to strike the killing blow. He was mostly toying with Luke in ESB fight and Luke was a straight up chump compared to Vader.

And there is James Earl Jones' performance as Vader's voice. Man oh man. There is such underlined rage and anger with ever line he delivers. In all honesty he does not have to achieve much to know that he is a legit villain.

Agreed, JEJ is great.


I cant argue with ROTJ... I never liked him in ROTJ.[/QUOTE]

Then on Dagobah Vader appears in the cave with snakes and hissing lizards, which is like a dream/nightmare, but not - Luke sees it and Yoda seems to sense it. Was Vader really there in some way, or did he controlling or sensing it? Did he place Luke's face in the Vader helmet, or did Yoda? We didn't know. At this point he was supernatural, or connected to something supernatural, but either way it was super evil.

That wasn't Vader though. And the first time I watched it I never got that impression.

The next you see Vader he's side by side with Fett, having arrived on Bespin the day before and forced the whole deal on Lando. Vader gets everything now and he's all gleeful sarcastic again, inviting them to sit down to a meal with him. And when Han, the most badass gunslinger in the galaxy, draws and shoots, Vader literally just puts up his hand to block the blasts, then tugs the gun into his hand. No lightsabers or bodyguards needed. Vader barely lifts a finger. Our badass Han is humiliated, and in front of Leia and Chewy.

One of the best scenes in the OT showing his true powers.

I don't disagree with your other points, great write up, but it just presents Vader more as a manipulator or strategist of sorts than a "doer"... if that makes sense. We never see his full power unleashed like we do in the end of RO. Like, he organizes and plans and acts intimidating... but ultimately he fails at every turn.

 

[JAWS]

Lol..... Capt America picking up Thors hammer beats...... huh sheesh I don't think TRos had any stand out moments at all. Aside from I am the jedi but that was so cringeworthy.

I know I am very much in the minority here but

First off I didnt like EG... Like not at all. Big reason was that Hulk (my fav) got screwed. But even after getting over that I found the film to be very boring and the final battle to feel cheapened without having the Thanos from IW in it. It was a boring battle that played more like a trailer for the movie rather then an EPIC final battle 10 years in the making. I found it hard to sit back and enjoy the cap moments because that is all the movie was... A bunch of Cap porn for the Russo's and Khev . IW was just such a better film.. EG with its time travel garbage and meh battle for me was just a big let down.

TROS on the other hand. Well I had no expectations for that and yet it delivered for me in so many ways.

Horror opening with the Emperor
Exciting and Fun type ANH escape (on the Star Destroyer)
Great Saber Battle on Endor
Han seen was emotionally better then IM death (Yep I said it)
"There are more of Us" was better then "On your left" Even though it was a complete rip off.. The music took it too that next level for me in TROS. Music in EG was trying to be more emotional.. I preferred the psych up music of TROS.
"I am all the Jedi" was good but another rip off of EG "I am Iron Man" But I never thought of that till someone pointed it out. "I am Iron Man" is better though. But I liked "I am all the Jedi" also.
Ben's saber battle with the Knights
Leia's death
Chewie getting Han's medal.. Not cause Chewie finally gets one but because it was Han's.

It was just a more fun film for me and easier to return to.

I watched EG in the theaters 2x and on home video once.. I am not sure when I will return to it again... I've seen TROS 3x now and cant wait to see it again. I think I am waiting for the official 4K release even though I bought it digitally

 

[Wor-Gar]

Welcome to corporate america where failing up requires an MBA.

Vader is the CEO of Yahoo lol

Also applies to school superintendents just swap MBA with PHD.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ESB was so forward-thinking.

 

[TheDucky]

I know I am very much in the minority here but

First off I didnt like EG... Like not at all. Big reason was that Hulk (my fav) got screwed. But even after getting over that I found the film to be very boring and the final battle to feel cheapened without having the Thanos from IW in it. It was a boring battle that played more like a trailer for the movie rather then an EPIC final battle 10 years in the making. I found it hard to sit back and enjoy the cap moments because that is all the movie was... A bunch of Cap porn for the Russo's and Khev . IW was just such a better film.. EG with its time travel garbage and meh battle for me was just a big let down.

TROS on the other hand. Well I had no expectations for that and yet it delivered for me in so many ways.

Horror opening with the Emperor
Exciting and Fun type ANH escape (on the Star Destroyer)
Great Saber Battle on Endor
Han seen was emotionally better then IM death (Yep I said it)
"There are more of Us" was better then "On your left" Even though it was a complete rip off.. The music took it too that next level for me in TROS. Music in EG was trying to be more emotional.. I preferred the psych up music of TROS.
"I am all the Jedi" was good but another rip off of EG "I am Iron Man" But I never thought of that till someone pointed it out. "I am Iron Man" is better though. But I liked "I am all the Jedi" also.
Ben's saber battle with the Knights
Leia's death
Chewie getting Han's medal.. Not cause Chewie finally gets one but because it was Han's.

It was just a more fun film for me and easier to return to.

I watched EG in the theaters 2x and on home video once.. I am not sure when I will return to it again... I've seen TROS 3x now and cant wait to see it again. I think I am waiting for the official 4K release even though I bought it digitally

My first reaction, please don't take it the wrong way, debates have been fun with you

But damn, we are far apart on the movie spectrum for sure

Endgame better than TROS?

 

[TaliBane]

That wasn't Vader though. And the first time I watched it I never got that impression.



One of the best scenes in the OT showing his true powers.

I don't disagree with your other points, great write up, but it just presents Vader more as a manipulator or strategist of sorts than a "doer"... if that makes sense. We never see his full power unleashed like we do in the end of RO. Like, he organizes and plans and acts intimidating... but ultimately he fails at every turn.

On Dagobah, it's unclear to this day what happened there but in 1980 (that was the prupose of my post - getting into how/why Vader became a classic villain) you were even more in the dark.

And I never said that it was him, I said him in some way - ie whether Vader played some role in that concentration of dark-side energy in the cave, a force he was connected to and communed with (that was his cool meditation chamber, another classic Vader bit I forgot to mention in my earlier post - how many villains so evil meditate?). Was what we saw solely something that Yoda created in Luke's mind, or does the cave - connected to the darkside - have a mind of its own?

And I know I'm in the minority in saying that RO Vader was fun fan service, but for me pretty forgettable and kind of silly/over the top to some degree - almost "un-Vader-like." But I can see it's probably great for the gamer generation. If that's your idea of how a villain should be to qualify as a great villain vs what we see in the OT, we're in disagreement and I understand why you think OT Vader is a weak, overhyped villain.

EDIT: And as a side-note, you mentioned Kylo being on a best villains list earlier (saying it was him and Vader on that list, ie both weak) but although he's a meh villain to me, Driver is THE (probably only) standout performance of the ST, and brings complexity to a pretty meh role. And also, he'll fade - more recent characters tend to rise on those lists then fall - all the greater the achievement by Vader.

 

[Khev]

I found it hard to sit back and enjoy the cap moments because that is all the movie was... A bunch of Cap porn for the Russo's and Khev .

Horror opening with the Emperor

Dude I can't even begin to describe how blown away I am by TROS's "horror" elements. In fact I decided to do some hunting in Google (since this site's Search is utter crap) to pull up some musings that go all the way back to when TFA was still in theaters. Check out this exchange from February 2016:

I can't help but wonder if Kylo will fashion himself a true Vader suit (accurate to the OT) to wear by Episode IX.

So, that will basically make him a cosplayer?

Yes but in the tradition of those 80's slasher flicks where some troubled kid puts on the hat/mask of the main killer. Kylo already crossed into a bit of F13 Pt 2 territory with the "relative's head on a shrine" deal, maybe he'll go all the way.

It'd certainly be a way for Disney to keep the suit relevant/current.

Wouldn't have ever thought it possible to draw parallels between Friday the 13th and TFA.

Holy ****, maybe REY will put on Vader's suit to get Kylo to lower his guard so Finn can finish him off!

"You have done well Grandson, now kneel..." *slice!*

Can you imagine getting a ****ing Rey Vader figure in a few years?

I really kind of want to see Darth Rey now.

Actually in all seriousness I could see it playing out this way:

Rey dons Vader's costume. Pretends to be Vader, approaches Kylo. Kylo lets down his guard and reaches out to his beloved grandfather. Rey runs the son of a ***** through with a lightsaber. Kylo's last few seconds of life are spent in anguish as he believes he is being murdered by the one he loves the most. Poetic justice for what he did to his dad.

And then October 2018:

Ever since TFA I've said that if it were up to me Rey should pull a "Ginny" from Friday the 13th Part II and put on Vader's mangled mask to **** with Kylo's head long enough to run him through.

Then in TROS we get:

compared to:

_______________________

Distracted by the silhouette of his mother:

long enough for the girl to run him through.

So Kylo pretty much got defeated in the exact way that I wanted to see him taken down from day one. Never in a million years did I actually think I'd get my wish in a Disney produced Star Wars flick but holy crap here we are.

But then with the *added* twist of him getting redeemed and reconciling with his dad before heading off to join forces with Rey against Palps so that I could get the *other* ending that I always wanted by seeing Force twins taking on the Emperor. And I thought all of the above was pretty much perfectly executed so that's just the icing on the cake.

Granted those were some pretty out there directions to take the story so I get why many were turned off by it but damn, to say that I got what I wanted would be the understatement of the decade, lol.

 

[jye4ever]

Tali while I get what you are saying about RO Vader I also don?t see any harm being done to his well deserved status because of RO showing him in full on rage mode especially since he choked his first prisoner onboard the T4 lol





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[jye4ever]

Dude I can't even begin to describe how blown away I am by TROS's "horror" elements. In fact I decided to do some hunting in Google (since this site's Search is utter crap) to pull up some musings that go all the way back to when TFA was still in theaters. Check out this exchange from February 2016:













And then October 2018:



Then in TROS we get:

compared to:

_______________________

Distracted by the silhouette of his mother:

long enough for the girl to run him through.

So Kylo pretty much got defeated in the exact way that I wanted to see him taken down from day one. Never in a million years did I actually think I'd get my wish in a Disney produced Star Wars flick but holy crap here we are.

But then with the *added* twist of him getting redeemed and reconciling with his dad before heading off to join forces with Rey against Palps so that I could get the *other* ending that I always wanted by seeing Force twins taking on the Emperor. And I thought all of the above was pretty much perfectly executed so that's just the icing on the cake.

Granted those were some pretty out there directions to take the story so I get why many were turned off by it but damn, to say that I got what I wanted would be the understatement of the decade, lol.

khev are you sitting...

Look at her shirt....well try to look at her shirt ok lol

Did we just enter the twilight zone or what!


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[Khev]

No. Effing. Way.



In all these years I don't think I've ever looked at the Mickey on her shirt. Holy crap, lol.

 

[jye4ever]

Matches up perfectly with Rey going to go find Luke on Ahch-to:

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[Khev]

The circle is now complete, lol.