Star Wars Saga (OT/PT/ST) Discussion Thread

[jye4ever]

If you are suffering as much as I am PLEASE tell me lol

 

[ajp4mgs]

See Bravo?s post.

Perfect! Glad you said that. Bravomite's post states that the Jedi had Sith secrets in their "restricted section." But Anakin didn't learn that Sith could achieve immortality until the opera scene. Guess when the movie shows him being pissed about being denied the rank of Master? Yeah, that's right: it was *before* the opera scene.

When was that? I?m curious. Not in TPM. They were surrounded on Geonosis. Fighting Palps in ROTS....

There was a funeral at the Jedi Temple for 5 slain Jedi Knights in a TCW episode. I'm sure you've seen it. Remember all the Jedi Masters there? Anakin was there too. He saw Jedi buried by Masters, not brought back to life.

Sure ya did.

Um, yeah. You even quoted it. Here it is again, word for word: If Anakin believes Palpatine (and he must since he turns to the dark based on that conversation), then he accepts that you can't learn this power from the light/Jedi side. That eliminates any argument that Anakin would continue being resentful of the Jedi for keeping him from learning this "power."

You just won?t accept what is in front of you huh? It was a slow burn. And it was set up fine if you think a little. Sorry you weren?t spoonfed it. Attachment to his mother, fear of losing her, is why Anakin was not to be trained. Even as a child, it was established he was dangerous with his attachments. See Yoda?s quote on Fear... leads to anger... leads to hate.... leads to suffering. He was fearful of losing his mother and in AOTC he did. He now has anger towards the Jedi for not saving her, towards himself for not being strong enough to save her, and hates the Tusken?s. ?I hate them...? and he killed them all. This entire process starts to repeats itself with Padme and his visions. He has no one who is willing to help him and he isn?t going to lose her like he lost his mother. So, he is willing to do whatever it takes, whatever path he must travel, to save her. All this has been built up, fuming, he still carries this anger within himself.

Ducky, *all* Jedi have their own demons to conquer. Kenobi watched his master get murdered right in front of him. He also had a relationship with Satine, and she died in his arms saying she loved him. Those types of burdens, and the seduction of the dark side, are what all Jedi have to deal with; not just Anakin.

Count Dooku turned Sith too. So it can happen to Jedi who didn't grow up as slaves, plucked when they were too old, and failed to keep their mother alive. And I'm sure there are Jedi who had Anakin-like tragedies in their lives but never gave in to the dark side.

I'm not oblivious to all those things Anakin went through, but he still choked the woman he was trying to save by turning to the dark. Same movie! I find that nonsensical. He tried to kill his master whom he had referred to as the closest he had to a father in the same movie. I find that too dissonant and abrupt.

Luke lost his Aunt and Uncle, then lost Ben, saw a planet get blown up, lost multiple friends, saw death non-stop while in the Rebel Alliance... and still kept on his path. Never gave up. But, somehow, has magically turned to a POS coward all from once little 20 second scene? Not even comparable whatsoever.

You're not interested in an explanation of ST Luke, and I've written about it countless times, so I'll move on.

What was he gonna do afterwards? Go back to the Jedi? He wasn?t strong enough to defeat the Emperor. Kill himself? He was stuck and then consumed.

If he went to the dark just to save Padme, and then found out he'd killed her, I just don't get his motivation for being Darth Vader. In the OT, he seemed like his ambition was power and control. That's what I figured would be the origin of his turn: a lust for power. But it was a love for his wife. When he lost her, he should've had nothing left to lose, so literally *any* choice he goes with would've made just as much sense as serving Palpatine.

I?ll say it again....

Anakin wanted to become a master to save those he loved from dying. In fact, the opera scene is genius in Anakin?s turn. It makes Anakin think about who the Jedi really are. He claims they are selfless, he claims they help people, but you can see the doubt in his delivery and performance, you can see the realization taking place and Anakin realizes the Jedi aren?t these things. They didn?t help his mother, they aren?t willing to help Padme. Your interpretation of the line is missed. When Palpatine says ?not from a Jedi? Palpatine doesn?t mean the Jedi don?t know this power, he means that Jedi won?t teach it to Anakin... because they never were willing to help him with really anything. And so Anakin, after all these years of not getting help, realizes that the dark side, that joining the Sith, would lead him to discovering these powers, that he would be able to learn these powers going down a new path.

He couldn?t figure it out alone. Palpatine said they would do it together and Anakin?s trust and belief in the Jedi was lost. He never really had two options simultaneously. It was getting the rank of master, but then he lost his trust in the order and at that point a new path opened up... Palpatine.

And *I'll* say it again: Anakin was pissed about not being a Master *before* he learned about the Sith/Plagueis power of immortality.

Do you seriously think I haven't watched this movie? Anakin gets told he can be on the Council (per Palpatine), but not be granted the rank of Master. He throws a hissy fit. Not because there are immortality secrets kept from non-masters, but because he finds it a personal insult. How do we know that? Among other obvious reasons stated from his own dialogue, it's only *after* that he learns about Plagueis discovering an immortality secret.

The idea that Anakin is resentful about not being granted Master recognition because it'd keep him from learning a Sith/Plagueis secret that he didn't know about till later is complete nonsense; directly contradicted by the movie itself. End of story. You know it; I know it...no matter what any YouTuber says, it's obvious to anyone paying attention.

And Anakin wouldn't suspect that Jedi themselves knew of any such power. As I pointed out to you, they buried their own. Masters present, during the clone wars, burying Jedi with Yoda speaking over the dead bodies. If Anakin wanted the power to bring Padme back from the death that he saw her have in his dreams, there's no reason he'd suspect being a Jedi Master would grant him that. His only hope was the reveal from Palpatine about Plagueis.

 

[JAWS]

Holy **** stop with with the masters restricted section it's not that funny. Seeing you guys so easily amused by something so dumb and silly and talking about and making pics about it in like three threads is hilarious.

It's not that damn funny lol. I can name tons of things in the PT that is funnier than that.

Also I dare one of you to go into the SWT guys vids and actually start an argument with fellow star wars fans there. I would very much like to see the results and see if you win or lose the debate.
Step outside the bubble and challenge your so called right thoughts. I know you won't

Like seriously I know you guys have a ST love club but step outiside your comfort zone and actually go on his vids and challenge his arguments.

I posted on that video.. I got some likes

Well he did say he'd change our views on Anakin's turn in 3 minutes and that's exactly what he did, lol.

You guys spend more time **** talking the PT than you do with your own kids

When the PT haters read my post and realize they are all wrong

There's the self circle jerk... Cant be easy

 

[JAWS]

If he went to the dark just to save Padme, and then found out he'd killed her, I just don't get his motivation for being Darth Vader. In the OT, he seemed like his ambition was power and control. That's what I figured would be the origin of his turn: a lust for power. But it was a love for his wife. When he lost her, he should've had nothing left to lose, so literally *any* choice he goes with would've made just as much sense as serving Palpatine.

This is a great point. Never sat well with me. GL had to go and change dialogue in ESB to try and make what happened in the PT make sense in the world of the OT.

Talk about not having a plan.

And *I'll* say it again: Anakin was pissed about not being a Master *before* he learned about the Sith/Plagueis power of immortality.

Do you seriously think I haven't watched this movie? Anakin gets told he can be on the Council (per Palpatine), but not be granted the rank of Master. He throws a hissy fit. Not because there are immortality secrets kept from non-masters, but because he finds it a personal insult. How do we know that? Among other obvious reasons stated from his own dialogue, it's only *after* that he learns about Plagueis discovering an immortality secret.

Brutal.
Now..

The idea that Anakin is resentful about not being granted Master recognition because it'd keep him from learning a Sith/Plagueis secret that he didn't know about till later is complete nonsense; directly contradicted by the movie itself. End of story. You know it; I know it...no matter what any YouTuber says, it's obvious to anyone paying attention.

 

[Khev]

 

[aussiebottt]

Do you seriously think I haven't watched this movie? Anakin gets told he can be on the Council (per Palpatine), but not be granted the rank of Master. He throws a hissy fit. Not because there are immortality secrets kept from non-masters, but because he finds it a personal insult. How do we know that? Among other obvious reasons stated from his own dialogue, it's only *after* that he learns about Plagueis discovering an immortality secret.

The idea that Anakin is resentful about not being granted Master recognition because it'd keep him from learning a Sith/Plagueis secret that he didn't know about till later is complete nonsense; directly contradicted by the movie itself. End of story. You know it; I know it...no matter what any YouTuber says, it's obvious to anyone paying attention.

And Anakin wouldn't suspect that Jedi themselves knew of any such power. As I pointed out to you, they buried their own. Masters present, during the clone wars, burying Jedi with Yoda speaking over the dead bodies. If Anakin wanted the power to bring Padme back from the death that he saw her have in his dreams, there's no reason he'd suspect being a Jedi Master would grant him that. His only hope was the reveal from Palpatine about Plagueis.

Ahh but if you read the ROTS novelisation it goes on to explain that Anakin WAS aware of secret Jedi teachings only accessible to Master level Jedi. He was aware of this before the Opera scene with Palpatine and that is why he threw the "hissy-fit".

Now JAWS how's that for a fatality?

 

[JAWS]

Ahh but if you read the ROTS novelisation it goes on to explain that Anakin WAS aware of secret Jedi teachings only accessible to Master level Jedi. He was aware of this before the Opera scene with Palpatine and that is why he threw the "hissy-fit".

Now JAWS how's that for a fatality?

Not very good... Ajp already dismantled that

That novelization version makes Anakin dumber than he was in the movie. At least in the movie, without any mention of a "restricted section," Anakin sees Palpatine as his *only* resource for learning the Sith "secret to immortality," thereby giving him a reason to keep Palps alive. But by introducing another option, Anakin would have to be an idiot to keep Palpatine alive rather than turning him in and proving to be the Chosen One who led to the Sith threat being eliminated. Jedi Master rank a certainty at that point, and access granted to all those "restricted" secrets.

What's the point of introducing an obsession over being denied access to a "restricted section" if he only learns about it *after* Palpatine's talk at the opera? From that point, he's seeing that he had *two* options rather than just a single desperate reliance on Palpatine. One option requires keeping a Sith Master alive; the other option fulfills the Chosen One prophecy and grants Anakin his Jedi Master access. Choosing the first one makes Anakin either really stupid or just determined to join the dark side. How is that better?

It ends up making Anakin look even worse. This just keeps getting funnier.

Plus his Hissy fit has nothing to do with Master Jedi Secrets.. Not in the film.. Being on the council without the rank of Master is "Insulting"

 

[ironwez20]

I posted on that video.. I got some likes














There's the self circle jerk... Cant be easy

O yes I?m sure u got some likes . I?m proud of you!

 

[aussiebottt]

Not very good... Ajp already dismantled that

Ok can I claim it as a self-congratulory post then?

 

[JAWS]

O yes I?m sure u got some likes . I?m proud of you!

Oh come on.. I was being goofy about that..

I did post but nobody argued with me..

Personally I think people just post their opinion and then go on to the next video click bait video..

 

[JAWS]

Ok can I claim it as a self-congratulory post then?

absolutely

 

[ajp4mgs]

This is a great point. Never sat well with me. GL had to go and change dialogue in ESB to try and make what happened in the PT make sense in the world of the OT.

Talk about not having a plan.

As riddled with other problems as they were, I still think the first two PT movies laid enough of a foundation to put Anakin on the dark side path. I just don't understand why George doubled back in ROTS to repeat that foundation and keep Anakin compassionate and wrestling with fear again for the first two acts of that movie.

In the OT, Luke would've gone to the dark side if he followed through on killing Vader. Just that one act, coming from the fear of having his sister corrupted. Anakin had already had that moment with the Tuskens. Fear established in TPM; anger and hate established in AOTC. Anakin didn't stop himself. Done! Now build on the dark side taking him over. "Consume you it will." "Forever will it dominate your destiny."

By making "keep Padme from dying" the catalyst for the official turn to Vader, all that does is muddy up the narrative waters. Now Anakin needs a new (and pretty much non-established) motive for continuing to be Vader in the OT. Why not just progress the arc from AOTC where Anakin wants more power because he knows he has more potential than even Yoda?

The lust for power (Jedi abilities) and control (the political side) could've been what Palpatine seduced him with. That would also drive the wedge between Anakin and his wife, before knowing she actually had twins and not just a son. And of course one of them would be hidden because of the threat from Anakin's darkness. There'd be no retconning of OT dialogue necessary.

Lucas kept it simple in the OT, but I think he wanted to do too much with his PT narrative. I don't blame him at all for having lofty ambitions, but I just wish he'd made it easier on himself.

 

[Khev]

It seems to be becoming more and more clear that the common denominator with those who hate the ST the most and those who love the PT the most is a willful disregard for what is presented in the actual films.

Watch this guy perfectly convey in a mere four minutes why TLJ Luke syncs up seamlessly with the OT.



And he doesn't need to pull any Restricted Section nonsense out of his ass, all he references are the actual films.

Or this one showing how RJ used space combat guidelines gleaned from all eras of SW to drive the narrative:



Great stuff that shows that contrary to certain claims RJ did indeed "do his homework."

 

[DiFabio]

but one thing ROTS did not need was more help to drive it over the cliff completely and that's what SWT guy did with his 3 minute Filoni epiphany.

So because one random dude made something up, it becomes gospel and ruins something for good? That’s stupid. I never even heard of this guy before today. These things only ruin it if you let them. It’s like the RedLetterMedia Plinkett prequel reviews. I found them to be humorous and even a bit enlightening, but I never took their opinions as being the gospel.

That’s always been the problem with this community in my opinion, people just parroting other people’s views to form their own opinions. You watch too many youtube videos and social media. With the sheer amount of content out there, anyone can find something to latch onto to validate their ideas.

People can say what they will about the prequels, but in comparison to the ST and TROS, I think Revenge of the Sith ended the saga and franchise on a high note. It didn’t fall on it’s face or “drive it over the cliff”. In fact, Star Wars was stronger than ever after 2005 and continued to be. I?d argue, stronger than Return of the Jedi. Star Wars practically died after 1983. Still kept goin’ in 2006, 2007, 2008, and beyond.

Can’t say the same about the sequels. If it wasn’t for the Mandolorian show, Star Wars wouldn’t have any goodwill left.

 

[ironwez20]

So because one random dude made something up, it becomes gospel and ruins something for good? That?s stupid. I never even heard of this guy before today. These things only ruin it if you let them. It?s like the RedLetterMedia Plinkett prequel reviews. I found them to be humorous and even a bit enlightening, but I never took their opinions as being the gospel.

That?s always been the problem with this community in my opinion, people just parroting other people?s views to form their own opinions. You watch too many youtube videos and social media. With the sheer amount of content out there, anyone can find something to latch onto to validate their ideas.

People can say what they will about the prequels, but in comparison to the ST and TROS, I think Revenge of the Sith ended the saga and franchise on a high note. It didn?t fall on it?s face or ?drive it over the cliff?. In fact, Star Wars was stronger than ever after 2005 and continued to be. I?d argue, stronger than Return of the Jedi. Star Wars practically died after 1983. Still kept goin? in 2006, 2007, 2008, and beyond.

Can?t say the same about the sequels. If it wasn?t for the Mandolorian show, Star Wars wouldn?t have any goodwill left.

This! I keep telling the guy. His name is Star Wars theory. What he?s saying is his own interpretation and not canon. He?s just putting pieces together and making up his own answer. So idk why some act like what he just said is now the new canon . Theory is an educated guess. The man is literally guessing what is happening. It?s not a big deal.

 

[ironwez20]

It seems to be becoming more and more clear that the common denominator with those who hate the ST the most and those who love the PT the most is a willful disregard for what is presented in the actual films.

Watch this guy perfectly convey in a mere four minutes why TLJ Luke syncs up seamlessly with the OT.



And he doesn't need to pull any Restricted Section nonsense out of his ass, all he references are the actual films.

Or this one showing how RJ used space combat guidelines gleaned from all eras of SW to drive the narrative:



Great stuff that shows that contrary to certain claims RJ did indeed "do his homework."

Lol the dislikes and comments ...... ...... oof.

 

[Khev]

This! I keep telling the guy. His name is Star Wars theory. What he?s saying is his own interpretation and not canon. He?s just putting pieces together and making up his own answer. So idk why some act like what he just said is now the new canon . Theory is an educated guess. The man is literally guessing what is happening. It?s not a big deal.

Oh yeah there's no harm in pulling stuff out of your ass to fit your head canon, we all do that. But what some of us were laughing at was the "Jedi Order Restricted Section" for Masters only that apparently *does* have the secrets to keeping people from dying according to the ROTS novelization which makes it *not* some random YouTuber's theory and actually an in print canon revelation that Anakin was even stupider than we all thought, lol, which SWT went out of his way to make us aware of. Now do I go by novelization nonsense that contradicts the films? No, I do not. So even though I laugh at the silliness I fully reject SWT's Restricted Section because it is in no way even hinted at in the films and would make them exponentially stupider if it was.

 

[TheDucky]

It seems to be becoming more and more clear that the common denominator with those who hate the ST the most and those who love the PT the most is a willful disregard for what is presented in the actual films.

Watch this guy perfectly convey in a mere four minutes why TLJ Luke syncs up seamlessly with the OT.



And he doesn't need to pull any Restricted Section nonsense out of his ass, all he references are the actual films.

Or this one showing how RJ used space combat guidelines gleaned from all eras of SW to drive the narrative:



Great stuff that shows that contrary to certain claims RJ did indeed "do his homework."

That first video is such ****ing garbage hahaha

Luke lived through tragedy in the OT and continued on. But all of a sudden he is broken and can’t handle it? Nah.

Then trying to equate Vader to Ben is just delusional.

Luke: I can’t kill my own father!

Kenobi: Can you kill a nephew?

Luke: Yeah no issue


Luke being a straight up baby back ***** is not good story telling.

 

[TheDucky]

So because one random dude made something up, it becomes gospel and ruins something for good? That?s stupid. I never even heard of this guy before today. These things only ruin it if you let them. It?s like the RedLetterMedia Plinkett prequel reviews. I found them to be humorous and even a bit enlightening, but I never took their opinions as being the gospel.

That?s always been the problem with this community in my opinion, people just parroting other people?s views to form their own opinions. You watch too many youtube videos and social media. With the sheer amount of content out there, anyone can find something to latch onto to validate their ideas.

People can say what they will about the prequels, but in comparison to the ST and TROS, I think Revenge of the Sith ended the saga and franchise on a high note. It didn?t fall on it?s face or ?drive it over the cliff?. In fact, Star Wars was stronger than ever after 2005 and continued to be. I?d argue, stronger than Return of the Jedi. Star Wars practically died after 1983. Still kept goin? in 2006, 2007, 2008, and beyond.

Can?t say the same about the sequels. If it wasn?t for the Mandolorian show, Star Wars wouldn?t have any goodwill left.

I?ve already said this multiple times over. I?ve posted stats about action figure sales, comic sales, novels, video games... made posts about the state of the franchise after ROTS vs TROS. They don?t want to hear it or admit it. They just continue living in their own little heads.

 

[ironwez20]

Oh yeah there's no harm in pulling stuff out of your ass to fit your head canon, we all do that. But what some of us were laughing at was the "Jedi Order Restricted Section" for Masters only that apparently *does* have the secrets to keeping people from dying according to the ROTS novelization which makes it *not* some random YouTuber's theory and actually an in print canon revelation that Anakin was even stupider than we all thought, lol, which SWT went out of his way to make us aware of. Now do I go by novelization nonsense that contradicts the films? No, I do not. So even though I laugh at the silliness I fully reject SWT's Restricted Section because it is in no way even hinted at in the films and would make them exponentially stupider if it was.

Yes. Rarely do novels follow the films