The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.

[a-dev]

How about you ignore the last 3 pages like it never happened and just quote the first two? What could go wrong?

A Dark Fate discussion reboot? *strokes chin*

OK, first things first, I'm gender-swapping you all. You are now the Clown Princess of Crime.

 

[e30ernest]

he lowers himself into a vat of molten lava. He breaks his programming and kills himself

But at that point, wasn't it one of its objectives to prevent the formation of Skynet? The chip in his head was a risk (it could jump-start the creation of Skynet in the same way the previous Terminator did). It was a logical choice for it to get destroyed even when you factor-in the "protect John" objective. Bob would have probably concluded that with it gone, so was Skynet and so was the threat to John's life.

He did, but half way thru they quit to go work on the next Star Wars trilogy.

Oh man....

I feel bad for this franchise. They wrote themselves into a corner (the Terminator premise as it was should have ended with T2) so they released multiple bad ones. I don't think majority of the current audience cares about the Terminator anymore. DF was always doomed to fail IMO.

 

[Robopredinator]

I'm not sure how I would advance the story after Terminator 2 but I was OK with the plot in Dark Fate - Skynet being erased yet AI takeover is inevitable in an alternate future with Legion. I was even happy with Grace as the "Kyle Reese" of the film and was a bit moved at her death and Dani checking in on her as a young child at the park - great parts.

Now for the bad: I am not on board with what they did with "Carl." Stupid. Just plain stupid. I understand where Tim Miller was coming from - with Uncle Bob showing some "human" emerging from him - but settling down in a nice home, with a family, starting a drapery business while serving slices of lime in Coronas with a dog in your lap is too damn much for me. Don't give me that, "but Bob showed some signs for John and maybe his family served that purpose for Carl" BS. IF I were to accept that, what drove him to have a family? After killing John, why would he seek a new purpose? Carl was the lamest thing in the Terminator franchise since T3's star glasses and "Talk to the hand" scene.

Sarah Connor? I wasn't feeling her too much. They tried too hard making her a bad ass, action hero with her presentation.

Dani? I wan't feeling her either. I don't mind a female being the new "John Connor" but I didn't particularly like this chick for the role - her saving Grace scene was cringey.

Overall? Meh.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

You are now the Clown Princess of Crime.

 

[a-dev]

It also doesn't make much sense that future John didn't anticipate Skynet sending other Terminators. How the hell did Carl slip through?

In the first movie, he somehow knows and has enough time to send Kyle Reese back to protect his existence from the T-800.

In the second movie, he somehow knows and has enough time to send Kyle Reese and a reprogrammed T-800 back to protect his existence from the T-800 and T-1000.

Then he just never knew about all the other cyborgs Skynet sent after the fact? WTF? What happened. Every story till this one John has been being able to counter Skynet with a protector of some sort.

That's been my biggest problem with their whole premise for this film. Why didn't they know about Carl and in turn why didn't Uncle Bob know about him - if he had known he surely would have stuck around at the end. After they kill the T-1000 and Sarah says ''It's over'', Uncle Bob would wince and say ''Aaactuallyyyy.....''

Except that even knowing what happens can still be different than actually watching it play out. Like the opening which we thought was suspect until actually seeing the footage. So I'll be curious to learn which of the things we've been talking about has you going "yeah my opinion on that element hasn't changed" versus "okay now that I've seen how such and such played out I now feel this way..." and so on.

Yeah, maybe, we'll see.

As it stands I think the film has brought us to some fun conversation the past few days but I'd lean towards DiFabio's argument about Carl. I think it's an unlikely course for a Skynet-programmed Terminator to take after completing his primary mission. So I don't think the 1984 T-800 would have become a Carl. I mean as Clown Prince mentioned you'd think Skynet would give its Terminators various other directives, things that would prevent any of these units turning against it and sabotaging it. In the Sarah Connor Chronicles there were Terminators that had other kinds of objectives.

I would differ from DiFabio's argument in that yes, I can believe Uncle Bob could have become like Carl (minus the seeming remorse - Uncle Bob didn't kill anyone) - in fact Sarah and John probably would have insisted he get a job so he's not hanging over them all the time.

The most immediate problem for Uncle Bob is how ****ed up he was at the end of T2. Could he even continue? He was operating on a secondary power source which was probably draining away.

So
A) could his main power be restored?
B) could they repair his arm using the arm from the 1984 T-800? It was the opposite arm but maybe it could be reverse engineered and
C) Would his flesh regrow? Genisys says yes but Genisys isn't canon. Kind of implausible anyway - entire sections of muscle and skin that had been ripped away completely? His eye? And if all that can regrow is it a stretch to then say that his organics overall should be able to continually rejuvenate and thus not age?

He didn't viloate his programming in T2. He stated he can't self terminate so Sarah had to lower him into the vat.

I do believe part of the Terminator's programming is to be as inconspicuous as possible. There may be things standing in the way of it reaching its target which require it to dispose of them, but just killing a guy at a pay phone on the street or a bouncer in a club calls unnecessary attention to itself. Once the target is at hand, all bets are off.

They didn't keep as low a profile as they really should have though. I mentioned in an earlier post...or maybe in the multi-quote post that I abandoned - was it logical and wise for the 1984 T-800 to kill anyone other than the Sarah Connors in the phonebook? Or for Uncle Bob to try to kill the jocks? ''We have to get out of the city immediately, and avoid the authorities'' - yeah, a good way of avoiding authorities is to not leave a trail of bodies in your wake.

That will always be the biggest plot hole to this entire series. If it?s not like Back to the Future where you fade out of existence when something changes or gets rewritten, then who the **** cares if the super computer you just beat sends back Terminators to kill your mom and younger self? You?re fine. Celebrate your victory, who cares about the other timeline.

How does Connor even know what Skynet is doing over at Skynet headquarters anyway? So Skynet?s defense grid is smashed, it?s defeated by Connor and his men and then what? They go in and investigate that, oh no, this log says that Skynet sent some Terminators back in time. How the **** did John know any of this **** and how did he have enough time to send back protectors or even know how to use Skynet?s time machine.

**** THIS FRANCHISE

I read most of that in Red Letter Media Jay's voice

 

[a-dev]

But at that point, wasn't it one of its objectives to prevent the formation of Skynet? The chip in his head was a risk (it could jump-start the creation of Skynet in the same way the previous Terminator did). It was a logical choice for it to get destroyed even when you factor-in the "protect John" objective. Bob would have probably concluded that with it gone, so was Skynet and so was the threat to John's life.

So it should have been. But he didn't bank on Hollywood's need to perpetually milk everything and James Cameron's weakened resolve.

 

[a-dev]

Dani? I wan't feeling her either. I don't mind a female being the new "John Connor" but I didn't particularly like this chick for the role - her saving Grace scene was cringey.

Her saving grace.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/saving-grace

Perfect

 

[e30ernest]

That's been my biggest problem with their whole premise for this film. Why didn't they know about Carl and in turn why didn't Uncle Bob know about him - if he had known he surely would have stuck around at the end. After they kill the T-1000 and Sarah says ''It's over'', Uncle Bob would wince and say ''Aaactuallyyyy.....''

This was an issue I had from the first T1 (it's infamous paradox). The only way I could make sense of it was that there were multiple instances of the John Connor story, and we only got to see one:

1. The real John Connor and his band of resistance fighters succeed in defeating Skynet. As a last resort, Skynet sends a Terminator back in time to kill John's mother. John finds out of this plot (since he's already in Skynet headquarters) and sends back his best lieutenant, Kyle Reese.
2. Kyle Reese has a child with Sarah, erasing the real John Connor. The John Connor created in this timeline knows who his father is because his mother tells him. So John grooms Kyle, gives him his mom's photo... Eventually Skynet loses, sends back a Terminator, and John sends back Kyle again.
3. Now we get the Terminator 1 timeline.

If the above were true, then the sending back of the "protectors" were reactionary (they only send one back when they find out Skynet sends a Terminator back). So "Carl" could have been sent before or after Bob, and it doesn't have to be from the same location/facility. Carl could have easily slipped through the resistance intelligence network.

It's not an old concept too. T:SCC had lots of Terminators living out normal lives in disguise. DF also hints at other Terminators coming in (the ones Sarah kills after John dies).

 

[Khev]

Well we never saw how the future played out with the Terminators being sent back through time. I picture John sending Reese and Uncle Bob but then Skynet one-upping them by sending Carl. Maybe future John was stopped from sending a third protector or maybe he *did* send one and Carl took him out prior to locating Sarah and John.

Or maybe the third protector got arrested or appeared in front of a greyhound bus or something.

One thing that I thought was cool in DF was that the time displacement equipment was clearly different. Freezing globes appearing instead of super hot. Rev-9 and Grace appearing 50-100 feet in the air as if Legion's equipment wasn't as precise as Skynet's.

 

[e30ernest]

Well we never saw how the future played out with the Terminators being sent back through time. I picture John sending Reese and Uncle Bob but then Skynet one-upping them by sending Carl. Maybe future John was stopped from sending a third protector or maybe he *did* send one and Carl took him out prior to locating Sarah and John.

Plausible as well. I think Carl showing up at the start is the least of the film's issues.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

''We have to get out of the city immediately, and avoid the authorities'' - yeah, a good way of avoiding authorities is to not leave a trail of bodies in your wake.

You know, I never realized how bad the T 800's rescue plan or directive were in T2.

1. Arrive in the year 1995.
2. Get some inconspicuous clothing to blend in with humans (gets full leather outfit and wears sunglasses at night ).
3. Locate the target, John Connor. (Goes to his house and asks the stepparents because it's totally normal for a 40 year old biker to be looking for a ten year old boy)
4. Make contact with JC. (Says nothing and takes out a shotgun from a box, almost giving the future savior a heart attack)
5. Leave the city and avoid the authorities immediately. (Then what?)
6. ?

That plan sucks. That's almost as bad as Luke Skywalker's rescue plan.

 

[Khev]

4. Make contact with JC. (Says nothing and takes out a shotgun from a box, almost giving the future savior a heart attack)

 

[a-dev]

This was an issue I had from the first T1 (it's infamous paradox). The only way I could make sense of it was that there were multiple instances of the John Connor story, and we only got to see one:

1. The real John Connor and his band of resistance fighters succeed in defeating Skynet. As a last resort, Skynet sends a Terminator back in time to kill John's mother. John finds out of this plot (since he's already in Skynet headquarters) and sends back his best lieutenant, Kyle Reese.
2. Kyle Reese has a child with Sarah, erasing the real John Connor. The John Connor created in this timeline knows who his father is because his mother tells him. So John grooms Kyle, gives him his mom's photo... Eventually Skynet loses, sends back a Terminator, and John sends back Kyle again.
3. Now we get the Terminator 1 timeline.

If the above were true, then the sending back of the "protectors" were reactionary (they only send one back when they find out Skynet sends a Terminator back). So "Carl" could have been sent before or after Bob, and it doesn't have to be from the same location/facility. Carl could have easily slipped through the resistance intelligence network.

It's not an old concept too. T:SCC had lots of Terminators living out normal lives in disguise. DF also hints at other Terminators coming in (the ones Sarah kills after John dies).

I've also considered that there could have been another facility with another time machine that John didn't know about. And perhaps the logs were not shared between facilities so John only knew about the Terminators that were sent from the facility he happened to be in.

But...there's all sorts of other problems with it.

When they were making Dark Fate Tim Miller stated that he didn't buy into parallel timelines and so forth - he felt it diminished the stakes. So what that means is we're operating solely in one timeline and every change to the past directly affects the future.....so if the Carl T-800 succeeded doesn't that mean John isn't there anymore to send back Kyle Reese and Uncle Bob. So T1 and T2 didn't happen..but Sarah still remembers them happening? I....wh...ngghhh

It's all such head-****ery.

I know we're a broken record but why oh why couldn't just make that damn 2029 future war movie - the one that Kyle Reese lived. Don't change anything, least nothing that T2 didn't change. Have it lead directly into T1 and then T2 in essence becomes the last movie. T2 becomes T3 and that's where the whole story resolves. The good guys win, the end.

 

[e30ernest]

That plan sucks. That's almost as bad as Luke Skywalker's rescue plan.

Dammit... T2 sucks now...

 

[Khev]

I know we're a broken record but why oh why couldn't just make that damn 2029 future war movie - the one that Kyle Reese lived. Don't change anything, least nothing that T2 didn't change. Have it lead directly into T1 and then T2 in essence becomes the last movie. T2 becomes T3 and that's where the whole story resolves. The good guys win, the end.

No excuse not to now that they've proven they can perfectly de-age Michael Biehn back into his 20's.

 

[Khev]

You know, I never realized how bad the T 800's rescue plan or directive were in T2.

Now I'm picturing an alternate T2 where Arnold says "get down" but the T-1000 is too quick and shoots John right between the eyes. Uncle Bob and the T-1000 lower their weapons and look at the deceased John, then quietly walk together to the nearest temp agency and get jobs, lol.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Dammit... T2 sucks now...

Now I'm picturing an alternate T2 where Arnold says "get down" but the T-1000 is too quick and shoots John right between the eyes. Uncle Bob and the T-1000 lower their weapons and look at the deceased John, then quietly walk together to the nearest temp agency and get jobs, lol.

The T 800 is a tactical genius. John ran back straight to the T 1000. Luckily, Pepsi man was in between the T 1000 and JC, and took the majority of the shots that were meant for John. Even the Pepsi can took a few for the future savior.

 

[Khev]

Re: The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.

Dark Fate

Now that?s an understatement if there ever was one.

I?m dying to hear what Cameron is going to say

The week DF is released Cameron reiterates how much he enjoyed working with Robert Rodriguez.

TM is so done, lol.

 

[e30ernest]

When they were making Dark Fate Tim Miller stated that he didn't buy into parallel timelines and so forth - he felt it diminished the stakes. So what that means is we're operating solely in one timeline and every change to the past directly affects the future.....so if the Carl T-800 succeeded doesn't that mean he wiped out all the events of T1 and T2 not unlike how Genisys did? View attachment 470011

It's all such head-****ery.

I know we're a broken record but why oh why couldn't just make that damn 2029 future war movie - the one that Kyle Reese lived. Don't change anything, least nothing that T2 didn't change. Have it lead directly into T1 and then T2 in essence becomes the last movie. T2 becomes T3 and that's where the whole story resolves. The good guys win, the end.

I don't think if Carl T-800 succeeded it would have changed anything in T1-2. So far, time travelling in the Terminator franchise only seems to change the present/future events, and never the past. T1 changed Sarah's present, and pushed the development of Skynet and the resulting Judgement Day forward. T2 erased Skynet altogether, but T1 still happened. So I'd say DF created a new future with a new AI borne out of the absence of Skynet, a future with no John Connor to lead.

James Cameron said that he intended the sequels to DF to explore the interactions of humans and AI. I was hoping to see that....

 

[a-dev]

You know, I never realized how bad the T 800's rescue plan or directive were in T2.

1. Arrive in the year 1995.
2. Get some inconspicuous clothing to blend in with humans (gets full leather outfit and wears sunglasses at night ).
3. Locate the target, John Connor. (Goes to his house and asks the stepparents because it's totally normal for a 40 year old biker to be looking for a ten year old boy)
4. Make contact with JC. (Says nothing and takes out a shotgun from a box, almost giving the future savior a heart attack)
5. Leave the city and avoid the authorities immediately. (Then what?)
6. ?

That plan sucks. That's almost as bad as Luke Skywalker's rescue plan.

I've said it before but I kinda wish they'd filmed the scene that I underlined.

No excuse not to now that they've proven they can perfectly de-age Michael Biehn back into his 20's.

They could totally do that. Does Biehn have an old man walk yet? Does he have a hard time getting up out of chairs? That's apparently the thing that makes it awkward

Now I'm picturing an alternate T2 where Arnold says "get down" but the T-1000 is too quick and shoots John right between the eyes. Uncle Bob and the T-1000 lower their weapons and look at the deceased John, then quietly walk together to the nearest temp agency and get jobs, lol.

That's definitely another 'what if' scenario for the next failed trilogy-starting reboot.