The Avengers: The Motion Picture Discussion Thread- Open SPOILERS -enter at own risk!

[The Ween]

The occasional Leeloo Dallas Multipass notwithstanding, a lot of his arrows just go into squishy parts. Bullets go into squishy parts. I think we need a bigger boat.

I want his arrow to go into my squishy parts.

Sorry.......had to say it. It was just RIGHT THERE!

 

[karamazov80]

Yeah, it's that simple. He just mishandled his finances. Marvel & Stan Lee are not in the wrong at all, especially since most of this happened decades ago. Doesn't matter that they continue to cover their tracks and attempt to re-write history, either. Kirby was just a grown man who screwed himself. Got it.

Just by chance I ran across a documentary tonight on Epix called "With Great Power" about Stan Lee, and Lee is pretty explicitly giving Kirby total collaborative credit, saying that he designed those characters, and that the interview that led Kirby to leave Marvel (because of the way Kirby was portrayed by the article) wasn't even going to have Kirby in it, but Lee didn't want to be interviewed as the sole creative element at Marvel because he worked so closely with Kirby.

I haven't paid all that much attention to this apparent dispute, but it's hard for me to imagine Lee giving Kirby much more credit than he does in this documentary.

17 minutes in here:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvgjca9gKnM[/ame]

Maybe Marvel itself has a different POV, but I don't know that your representation of Lee jives with this.

 

[thenammagazine]

Just by chance I ran across a documentary tonight on Epix called "With Great Power" about Stan Lee, and Lee is pretty explicitly giving Kirby total collaborative credit, saying that he designed those characters, and that the interview that led Kirby to leave Marvel (because of the way Kirby was portrayed by the article) wasn't even going to have Kirby in it, but Lee didn't want to be interviewed as the sole creative element at Marvel because he worked so closely with Kirby.

I haven't paid all that much attention to this apparent dispute, but it's hard for me to imagine Lee giving Kirby much more credit than he does in this documentary.

17 minutes in here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvgjca9gKnM

Maybe Marvel itself has a different POV, but I don't know that your representation of Lee jives with this.

Yeah, I'm sure Mr. Marvel cries all the way to the bank with those $1,000,000 yearly checks from Marvel Inc.

 

[skeemer]

Cant wait to get this on BD and watch it full volume jeje

 

[Niltusk]

Just by chance I ran across a documentary tonight on Epix called "With Great Power" about Stan Lee, and Lee is pretty explicitly giving Kirby total collaborative credit, saying that he designed those characters, and that the interview that led Kirby to leave Marvel (because of the way Kirby was portrayed by the article) wasn't even going to have Kirby in it, but Lee didn't want to be interviewed as the sole creative element at Marvel because he worked so closely with Kirby.

I haven't paid all that much attention to this apparent dispute, but it's hard for me to imagine Lee giving Kirby much more credit than he does in this documentary.

17 minutes in here:


Maybe Marvel itself has a different POV, but I don't know that your representation of Lee jives with this.

Nice find, if anything Lee and Simon are (were in Simon's case) very gracious towards Kirby. Whether out of genuine respect or because they don't want the clueless fanboys haterade anymore then already exists out there.

 

[karamazov80]

Yeah, I'm sure Mr. Marvel cries all the way to the bank with those $1,000,000 yearly checks from Marvel Inc.

So what are you suggesting? That Lee should turn those checks away as a matter of principle, until Marvel acknowledges Kirby's contributions and, potentially, splits his shares with the Kirby estate? Lee doesn't seem to be denying any of Kirby's contributions. Given that, what Marvel chooses to do in terms of giving credit and/or money isn't so much on him IMO. But admittedly, I don't know all the details of what happened historically here.

 

[Niltusk]

So what are you suggesting? That Lee should turn those checks away as a matter of principle, until Marvel acknowledges Kirby's contributions and, potentially, splits his shares with the Kirby estate? Lee doesn't seem to be denying any of Kirby's contributions. Given that, what Marvel chooses to do in terms of giving credit and/or money isn't so much on him IMO. But admittedly, I don't know all the details of what happened historically here.

Thats the problem that people don't embrace. People goto comic shops and hear them spew the stuff they heard someone else say that they heard someone else say, then instead of looking up records, they just continue the cycle cause its cool. Stan Lee doesn't own ____, these properties were made for comic companies as an employee of those companies. If you listen to the whining people they act like Stan Lee somehow screwed Kirby out of something. Kirby worked for several companies and had issues with them all which is what eventually made him get into the movies. Its well documented that Kirby saved marvel's ass when it was failing and that they even had him "training" artists to mimic his style. He could have stayed with them, but he didn't. Stan did and hes now reaping what took him a 70 year career with one company to get. I'm sure like any employee Stan the Man probably had to eat plenty of crap over the years, why shouldn't he be happy?

 

[thenammagazine]

So what are you suggesting? That Lee should turn those checks away as a matter of principle, until Marvel acknowledges Kirby's contributions and, potentially, splits his shares with the Kirby estate? Lee doesn't seem to be denying any of Kirby's contributions. Given that, what Marvel chooses to do in terms of giving credit and/or money isn't so much on him IMO. But admittedly, I don't know all the details of what happened historically here.

How about fork over 50% of that to the estate of the man who created 50% of what he's getting paid for? It'd still leave him with $500k a year. Seems like the honorable thing to do, doesn't it?

Thats the problem that people don't embrace. People goto comic shops and hear them spew the stuff they heard someone else say that they heard someone else say, then instead of looking up records, they just continue the cycle cause its cool. Stan Lee doesn't own ____, these properties were made for comic companies as an employee of those companies. If you listen to the whining people they act like Stan Lee somehow screwed Kirby out of something. Kirby worked for several companies and had issues with them all which is what eventually made him get into the movies. Its well documented that Kirby saved marvel's ass when it was failing and that they even had him "training" artists to mimic his style. He could have stayed with them, but he didn't. Stan did and hes now reaping what took him a 70 year career with one company to get. I'm sure like any employee Stan the Man probably had to eat plenty of crap over the years, why shouldn't he be happy?

For some reason I keep reading your handle as Nutlick.

 

[isculpt]

Stan Lee always gave credit to collaborators. I've never seen an interview where he overplays his role. He always says he's just the idea man, but not really the grandiose creator. Kirby was screwed my Marvel for sure, not entirely sure how, but I for sure know he and his family were upset by their treatment of him and his creations. With DC comics, I have no idea....

EDIT: I remember watching an interview or reading somewhere, that Kirby disliked going into any toy/merchandise stores because he would see his comic creations being sold without any credit towards him. This was a while back but very sad to hear....

 

[jye4ever]

Both my brothers are the jocks, I was the geek (but with a jock build, weird ).

Both were asking me why I have no interest in following sports*, to embrace the concept of being champions at something.

I told them that I absolutely enjoy competition and the thrill of the win, hence why I hope Avengers remains # 1 at the box office this weekend over Battleship

Yup, they









*not entirely accurate, I enjoy World Cup Soccer (I was born in Brasil afterall), and I also enjoy the Japanese Breast Milk Pantyhose Races*.




*Namcat and voidkitteh introduced me to the sport.

 

[Darth Snoopy]

I want his arrow to go into my squishy parts.

Sorry.......had to say it. It was just RIGHT THERE!

*not entirely accurate, I enjoy World Cup Soccer (I was born in Brasil afterall), and I also enjoy the Japanese Breast Milk Pantyhose Races*.




*Namcat and voidkitteh introduced me to the sport.

Why doesn't it surprise me.

 

[jye4ever]

had to add voidkitteh back in

 

[Niltusk]

How about fork over 50% of that to the estate of the man who created 50% of what he's getting paid for? It'd still leave him with $500k a year. Seems like the honorable thing to do, doesn't it?

He doesn't get paid "by the character" so this is ridiculous. He gets paid for everything hes done and for sticking with a company. I don't know what you do for a living, but basically loyalty and seniority have its perks. Why would anyone pay someone whos as big a POS as Kirby one dime more than they had to legally anyways?

For some reason I keep reading your handle as Nutlick.

You're kind of a dumb____ so its not surprising.

 

[Niltusk]

Stan Lee always gave credit to collaborators. I've never seen an interview where he overplays his role. He always says he's just the idea man, but not really the grandiose creator. Kirby was screwed my Marvel for sure, not entirely sure how, but I for sure know he and his family were upset by their treatment of him and his creations. With DC comics, I have no idea....

EDIT: I remember watching an interview or reading somewhere, that Kirby disliked going into any toy/merchandise stores because he would see his comic creations being sold without any credit towards him. This was a while back but very sad to hear....

Joe Simon on the other hand I can actually feel for. He co-created Cap with Kirby and didn't see anything from it for about 60 years. Unlike Kirby, Simon was a man about the situation and when he originally tried taking the rights back 50 years ago what happened? His co-creator (and heres a big difference, Kirby/Lee were just co-creators) and supposedly best friend Kirby sided with Marvel. Its legal history; Kirby went full Sith Lord and turned on his co-creator and best friend for some quid like a total PoS, which is probably why the single character he had the best shot at getting a payday from never materialized for Kirby, because he had already sided with Marvel over the rights in court previously. Til his dying day I never read or saw an interview with Simon badmouthing the crap that went down between them, but you know having Kirby backstab him had to have hurt. Luckily Kirby kicked and Joe Simon re pursued the case and finally got an undisclosed settlement which included some rights to the Cap image. I think Kirby's life is a fine demonstration of karma.

 

[thenammagazine]

You're kind of a dumb____ so its not surprising.

I think it has more to do with your actions and POVs.

Joe Simon on the other hand I can actually feel for. He co-created Cap with Kirby and didn't see anything from it for about 60 years. Unlike Kirby, Simon was a man about the situation and when he originally tried taking the rights back 50 years ago what happened? His co-creator (and heres a big difference, Kirby/Lee were just co-creators) and supposedly best friend Kirby sided with Marvel. Its legal history; Kirby went full Sith Lord and turned on his co-creator and best friend for some quid like a total PoS, which is probably why the single character he had the best shot at getting a payday from never materialized for Kirby, because he had already sided with Marvel over the rights in court previously. Til his dying day I never read or saw an interview with Simon badmouthing the crap that went down between them, but you know having Kirby backstab him had to have hurt. Luckily Kirby kicked and Joe Simon re pursued the case and finally got an undisclosed settlement which included some rights to the Cap image. I think Kirby's life is a fine demonstration of karma.

But it's not just him either. John Romita also created a plethora of characters too, and I don't see him being really thanked and acknowledged anywhere near the extent of Stan. Marvel has a history of screwing it's artists over. Stan was never an artist. While Ideas might be cool, it's presentation that brings them to life. To sit there and continually defend Stan and talk ____ about the artists is straight-up ignorance.

 

[jye4ever]

Like it or not, SL is the face of Marvel and always will be, even after his death.

Legal battles, fairness aside, his stamina does impress the ____ out of me though.

 

[Niltusk]

Or maybe it's because you just lick nuts? .

I'm getting the feeling you just like mens nuts, I get it ______, move on.

But it's not just him either. John Romita also created a plethora of characters too, and I don't see him being really thanked and acknowledged anywhere near the extent of Stan. Marvel has a history of screwing it's artists over. Stan was never an artist. While Ideas might be cool, it's presentation that brings them to life. To sit there and continually defend Stan and talk ____ about the artists is straight-up ignorance.

Ignorance is thinking stating fact is ____ talking because you have a hard on for Lee.
Ignorance is acting like Kirby deserves something that he screwed himself and others out of. If the documentation and internet existed then as it does today he'd be reviled, but since he was the squeaky wheel most people just go off his version of history. thats ignorance, not checking the facts. He never pursued Cap again, because he sided with marvel and agreed that he made him for Marvel. If anything he singlehandedly ____ed the artists more than anyone by doing that. Again, he sided with Marvel against creator ownership when he thought it was going to get him in good. Again, Stan Lee just sets there and admits he created the ideas. hes not lying, hes not slurring anyones good name, if anything, he and people like Simon took the high ground.

 

[thenammagazine]

I'm getting the feeling you just like mens nuts, I get it ______, move on.

Censored word starts with an "A" and ends with "L."

Ignorance is acting like Kirby deserves something that he screwed himself and others out of. If the documentation and internet existed then as it does today he'd be reviled, but since he was the squeaky wheel most people just go off his version of history. thats ignorance, not checking the facts. He never pursued Cap again, because he sided with marvel and agreed that he made him for Marvel. If anything he singlehandedly ____ed the artists more than anyone by doing that. Again, he sided with Marvel against creator ownership when he thought it was going to get him in good. Again, Stan Lee just sets there and admits he created the ideas. hes not lying, hes not slurring anyones good name, if anything, he and people like Simon took the high ground.

If an individual leaves a company over being frustrated for getting financially raped, that doesn't mean said company, or it's polesquatting fans have a right to somehow discredit what he brought to the table.

 

[Niltusk]

Censored word starts with an "A" and ends with "L."



If an individual leaves a company over being frustrated for getting financially raped, that doesn't mean said company, or it's polesquatting fans have a right to somehow discredit what he brought to the table.

There you go, please show us where hes been discredited as co creating one thing...

But tell me this. Say at one time, Stan Lee had it within him to turn on Marvel. Say, he understood the massive money maker that it had become started becoming apparent and whatever he was being paid he thought he deserved more. As co creator, what would he do? Turn on Marvel with the help of Jack Kirby the other half the creative team? Since him and Stan weren't best friends and Stan witnessed Kirby basically rape his best friend to side with Marvel when the chips were down, why the ____ would Stan lee have had any desire to pursue something as co-creator with Kirby? You screw your best friend, what are you going to do to a business associate? Maybe if Kirby had manned up and not betrayed Simon things may have panned differently, but would you have trusted him after that ____?

 

[thenammagazine]

There you go, please show us where hes been discredited as co creating one thing...

But tell me this. Say at one time, Stan Lee had it within him to turn on Marvel. Say, he understood the massive money maker that it had become started becoming apparent and whatever he was being paid he thought he deserved more. As co creator, what would he do? Turn on Marvel with the help of Jack Kirby the other half the creative team? Since him and Stan weren't best friends and Stan witnessed Kirby basically rape his best friend to side with Marvel when the chips were down, why the ____ would Stan lee have had any desire to pursue something as co-creator with Kirby? You screw your best friend, what are you going to do to a business associate? Maybe if Kirby had manned up and not betrayed Simon things may have panned differently, but would you have trusted him after that ____?

I would never rip off someone for their contributions to my business. Especially if said contributions led to a huge financial success. They'd be right there with me enjoying the ride. All this talk about loyalty, but you're forgetting Marvel's showed him none whatsoever.