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What about the soul Walter?

Should you believe that humans have a soul then that's quite the conundrum. Me, I go on the available evidence that points to the 'soul' being nothing more, and nothing less, than chemistry.

Why so many people need more than that is curious.
 
Then if we're all nothing in the end, nothing but cold, hard science then what's the point? That means the universe and existence as we know it is limited to our minds. If I cease to exist, then my world ends. The world as I perceive it ends. So it's all nothing. Every thought, experience and action we've taken is utterly pointless in the scheme if of things. Humanity having learned something about itself or overcomming adversity would mean nothing if we we are all destroyed tomorrow. We just live out a meaningless existence? So then we're just tools of our own minds? Where's the fun in that?

Religions and souls aside, I'd like to think we're a little more than chemical compounds going around aimlessly until we experience our inevitable end. We have feelings, compassion, emotions, fears, the concepts of right and wrong. If we just go by "evidence" then we're nothing more than matter. So if that's the case, then why does any of this matter? If choices, ideals and morals are just human responses that we're taught and learn, why don't we just kill each other? It wouldn't be wrong. If all we're just "chemistry", if it's just chemicals in our brain, then what is stopping all of us from devouring each other? Simply survival? There's got to be more to it than that. The things humans cling to have got to be more than simply ideas, especially when we take love, empathy and humility into account. Just seeing it as a concepts and construct is a pretty nihilistic view. What are we all living for than? Just to live? We're just more sophisticated and inteligent animals? Why? Why have this capacity of feelings and knowledge?

Nah, people need something to cling on to and believe in, even if it doesn't "make sense" as far as science dictates to us. There's got to be a middle ground. There's got to be more than simply being ashes or maggot food six feet in the ground, even if it's just some stupid, romantic fantasy. I'm ME damn it, even when my brain doesn't exist I'll have to exist SOMEWHERE! Right? Think of your personality and everyone you love/loved, living and deceased. I'd rather have the mind set that they're somewhere and everything that they live/lived for had/has some meaning beyond, "we were once alive, now we're dead". Maybe that's the harsh reality, true, but what does somebody benefit from thinking embitterenly that way?

Then again, if there is something else after this, are we even us? Or are we mindless drones that don't have an ounce of freewill? The point of existence is to exist, because existence cannot not exist, and non-existence cannot exist; therefore, existence must exist always and forever without creation and without end. That is why science says matter becomes energy and energy becomes matter, but it never ceases to exist in one form or the other.

After it's all said and done, we'll have to be somewhere. Even if that place isn't harps in a sky, or surrounded by virgins, or getting eaten by worms.
 
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Religious people don't bother me. CRAZY religious people do. People who can't think of anything in their day besides God, and how evil that person is because he makes music and jacks off.

Those people suck.
 
Then if we're all nothing in the end, nothing but cold, hard science then what's the point? ... Where's the fun in that?

I'm having a pretty fun time out if it. Aren't you?

Religions and souls aside, I'd like to think we're a little more than chemical compounds going around aimlessly until we experience our inevitable end... If we just go by "evidence" then we're nothing more than matter. So if that's the case, then why does any of this matter?

Why does it matter if it doesn't matter?

If choices, ideals and morals are just human responses that we're taught and learn, why don't we just kill each other? It wouldn't be wrong. If all we're just "chemistry", if it's just chemicals in our brain, then what is stopping all of us from devouring each other? Simply survival? There's got to be more to it than that.

090206-charles-darwin-02.jpg



The things humans cling to have got to be more than simply ideas, especially when we take love, empathy and humility into account. Just seeing it as a concepts and construct is a pretty nihilistic view. What are we all living for than? Just to live? We're just more sophisticated and inteligent animals? Why? Why have this capacity of feelings and knowledge?

See above pic :)

Nah, people need something to cling on to and believe in, even if it doesn't "make sense" as far as science dictates to us. There's got to be a middle ground. There's got to be more than simply being ashes or maggot food six feet in the ground, even if it's just some stupid, romantic fantasy. I'm ME damn it, even when my brain doesn't exist I'll have to exist SOMEWHERE! Right? Think of your personality and everyone you love/loved, living and deceased. I'd rather have the mind set that they're somewhere and everything that they live/lived for had/has some meaning beyond, "we were once alive, now we're dead". Maybe that's the harsh reality, true, but what does somebody benefit from thinking embitterenly that way?

I suspect that's what makes a magical afterlife land of rainbows and angels far more appealing.

Then again, if there is something else after this, are we even us? Or are we mindless drones that don't have an ounce of freewill? The point of existence is to exist, because existence cannot not exist, and non-existence cannot exist; therefore, existence must exist always and forever without creation and without end. That is why science says matter becomes energy and energy becomes matter, but it never ceases to exist in one form or the other.

After it's all said and done, we'll have to be somewhere. Even if that place isn't harps in a sky, or surrounded by virgins, or getting eaten by worms.

That's true, but being nutrient for a tree isn't a great night out. Life on this beautiful earth is all we get. Ever. Make the most of it :duff
 
I know what you mean.

But really religious people are also crazy. See the Noah thread. :lol

I can only imagine. I can't believe these religious epics are taken so seriously :lol

There has to be something. I mean, when you think about it, how did we come to live? where does that energy go to afterwards? There has to be Something...

I don't know why but the idea of reincarnation is something that appeals to me. There is no proof of anything but the one I like to think about is that one.
I like to think that our energies find a way to come back. Is not a belief or anything, just something that I thought about.

Well they say were energy, and it cannot be destroyed. I'd like to think when we die we elevate to a different plain of existence, or some kind of collective consciousness. I just can't see there being some kind of reward at the end if you're a good or bad person. The whole afterlife thing is based on ego, that were so important that we cannot possibly be turned off like a light switch forever.

I was very close to my Grandmother since she was the biggest influence on my life since she basically raised me on her own. She had passed away in 2009 from Lung Cancer 3 years after being diagnosed. To this day I feel so sad that she had to face the prospect of death, and it came. I'd truly like to think she's somewhere out there, alive to some degree... but I just can't convince myself of that.

If there is an afterlife or a proverbual "God", I think all religions got it wrong. You also have to take into consideration that one religion might indeed be completely wrong, so wouldn't that spill over into the possibility that they're all wrong?

I'm not bashing religion, I give people that devote themselves to it 100% all the credit in the world. I honestly wish I was one of those people sometimes so I wouldn't feel so small and frightened.
 
I hate that I'm going to fully respond to DiFabio's post.

I hate that I'm going to have to do it later.

I hate that I'm not going to be nearly as motivated when I have time to do it.

Thanks a lot. :mad:
 
Then if we're all nothing in the end, nothing but cold, hard science then what's the point? That means the universe and existence as we know it is limited to our minds. If I cease to exist, then my world ends. The world as I perceive it ends. So it's all nothing. Every thought, experience and action we've taken is utterly pointless in the scheme if of things. Humanity having learned something about itself or overcomming adversity would mean nothing if we we are all destroyed tomorrow. We just live out a meaningless existence? So then we're just tools of our own minds? Where's the fun in that?

Religions and souls aside, I'd like to think we're a little more than chemical compounds going around aimlessly until we experience our inevitable end. We have feelings, compassion, emotions, fears, the concepts of right and wrong. If we just go by "evidence" then we're nothing more than matter. So if that's the case, then why does any of this matter? If choices, ideals and morals are just human responses that we're taught and learn, why don't we just kill each other? It wouldn't be wrong. If all we're just "chemistry", if it's just chemicals in our brain, then what is stopping all of us from devouring each other? Simply survival? There's got to be more to it than that. The things humans cling to have got to be more than simply ideas, especially when we take love, empathy and humility into account. Just seeing it as a concepts and construct is a pretty nihilistic view. What are we all living for than? Just to live? We're just more sophisticated and inteligent animals? Why? Why have this capacity of feelings and knowledge?

Nah, people need something to cling on to and believe in, even if it doesn't "make sense" as far as science dictates to us. There's got to be a middle ground. There's got to be more than simply being ashes or maggot food six feet in the ground, even if it's just some stupid, romantic fantasy. I'm ME damn it, even when my brain doesn't exist I'll have to exist SOMEWHERE! Right? Think of your personality and everyone you love/loved, living and deceased. I'd rather have the mind set that they're somewhere and everything that they live/lived for had/has some meaning beyond, "we were once alive, now we're dead". Maybe that's the harsh reality, true, but what does somebody benefit from thinking embitterenly that way?

Then again, if there is something else after this, are we even us? Or are we mindless drones that don't have an ounce of freewill? The point of existence is to exist, because existence cannot not exist, and non-existence cannot exist; therefore, existence must exist always and forever without creation and without end. That is why science says matter becomes energy and energy becomes matter, but it never ceases to exist in one form or the other.

After it's all said and done, we'll have to be somewhere. Even if that place isn't harps in a sky, or surrounded by virgins, or getting eaten by worms.

I had stated earlier that the afterlife and religion seems to be based all around ego. That it's built into us that were such important beings that we can't possibly have nothing beyond this plain of existence. That we created this "God" so wouldn't feel so small and insignificant, and alone. The only slight comfort I get is that there still is no scientific explanation on what the "soul" is, what makes us all unique and different from person to person. I mean animals do have personalities, but they seem hard wired to just reproduce and keep their species going. There is much more to humans than just that, it's civilization which makes us higher than animals. Although you can say it's all based on evolution which is the main boundary between humans and animals.

I think the deciding factor in which I don't believe in religion whatsoever is the Universe itself. In all the billions of light years it inhabits, there HAS to be more life out there. And if there is two of something, there is probably many. So who governs them? Are we all bound by this formless God? I don't think so.
 
I had stated earlier that the afterlife and religion seems to be based all around ego. That it's built into us that were such important beings that we can't possibly have nothing beyond this plain of existence. That we created this "God" so wouldn't feel so small and insignificant, and alone. The only slight comfort I get is that there still is no scientific explanation on what the "soul" is, what makes us all unique and different from person to person. I mean animals do have personalities, but they seem hard wired to just reproduce and keep their species going. There is much more to humans than just that, it's civilization which makes us higher than animals. Although you can say it's all based on evolution which is the main boundary between humans and animals.

I think the deciding factor in which I don't believe in religion whatsoever is the Universe itself. In all the billions of light years it inhabits, there HAS to be more life out there. And if there is two of something, there is probably many. So who governs them? Are we all bound by this formless God? I don't think so.

I think the one thing that hints at the existence of God, is the very fact that societies have been molded on standards of ethics and morality since time immemorial (but, have always failed at it :lol). It's a commonality that things rape, murder, bribery, etc, were considered as crimes by ancient civilizations, that never even came into contact with one another. So, it seems as if humans are hardwired with a sense of what's "right and wrong" - and interestingly, we even have a conscience that lets us know when we've fallen short of those ideals.

Honestly though, theories on human evolution confuse me to no end. I'd honestly like to know what's the driving force behind it, and I believe that it's absurd to just credit all of it to chance. And even if our physical bodies stop evolving, we're always pushing the boundaries on scientific and technological advancements - which will continue to mold and shape societies for as long as we exist. So, in a sense, humans are striving to become like gods - and if I may add, that's the one thing that separates us from the animals. With that said, it makes sense to believe that we're striving towards something that's there; something that's unattainable, everlasting, and perfect (aka. God).
 
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I think the one thing that hints at the existence of God, is the very fact that societies have been molded on standards of ethics and morality since time immemorial (but, have always failed at it :lol). It's a commonality that things rape, murder, bribery, etc, were considered as crimes by ancient civilizations, that never even came into contact with one another. So, it seems as if humans are hardwired with a sense of what's "right and wrong" - and interestingly, we even have a conscience that lets us know when we've fallen short of those ideals.

Honestly though, theories on human evolution confuse me to no end. I'd honestly like to know what's the driving force behind it, and I believe that it's absurd to just credit all of it to chance. And even if our physical bodies stop evolving, we're always pushing the boundaries on scientific and technological advancements - which will continue to mold and shape societies as long for as long as we exist. So, in a sense, humans are striving to become like gods - and if I may add, that's the one thing that separates us from the animals. With that said, it makes sense to believe that we're striving towards something that there; something that's unattainable, everlasting, and perfect (aka. God).

You hit on a good point. Evolution is very hard to wrap my mind around. There is no real explanation to which causes it. Sure you can say it's from eons of trial and error and the genes of the being changing the physical makeup to ensure survival for a longer time to propagate the species. But how does ones body know that it needs to change a certain way? I never understood it. I believe in it, but I don't get it.
 
You hit on a good point. Evolution is very hard to wrap my mind around. There is no real explanation to which causes it. Sure you can say it's from eons of trial and error and the genes of the being changing the physical makeup to ensure survival for a longer time to propagate the species. But how does ones body know that it needs to change a certain way? I never understood it. I believe in it, but I don't get it.

Exactly. That's why I believe that there has to be an intelligence, that's driving the engineering behind evolution - besides the physical stimuli that are responsible for slight mutations in genes.
 
I'm still confused what this whole discussion is about. Is Difabio super crazy religious? What's going on here....

:lol
 
I think the one thing that hints at the existence of God, is the very fact that societies have been molded on standards of ethics and morality since time immemorial (but, have always failed at it :lol). It's a commonality that things rape, murder, bribery, etc, were considered as crimes by ancient civilizations, that never even came into contact with one another. So, it seems as if humans are hardwired with a sense of what's "right and wrong" - and interestingly, we even have a conscience that lets us know when we've fallen short of those ideals.

Honestly though, theories on human evolution confuse me to no end. I'd honestly like to know what's the driving force behind it, and I believe that it's absurd to just credit all of it to chance.

Notions of 'right and wrong' don't hint at the existence of God. They hint at the fact that humans exhibit behavioural characteristics and patterns developed over millions of years of evolution. If it served a beneficial evolutionary purpose I'm sure humans would be raping and murdering the hell out of each other.

You hit on a good point. Evolution is very hard to wrap my mind around. There is no real explanation to which causes it. Sure you can say it's from eons of trial and error and the genes of the being changing the physical makeup to ensure survival for a longer time to propagate the species. But how does ones body know that it needs to change a certain way? I never understood it. I believe in it, but I don't get it.

Natural selection determines that those physiological and psychological attributes that best equip a given organism for survival in a particular habitat will be retained in the genealogy of the species to which it belongs. In other words, various characteristics are enhanced or diminished through generational breeding, depending on their benefit to an organism in surviving in a given environment. The body doesn't have to 'know' anything - evolution doesn't happen that fast.
 
Notions of 'right and wrong' don't hint at the existence of God. They hint at the fact that humans exhibit behavioural characteristics and patterns developed over millions of years of evolution. If it served a beneficial evolutionary purpose I'm sure humans would be raping and murdering the hell out of each other.

But, then again, what dictates the "beneficiary evolutionary purpose"? In other words, how does evolution decide upon the behavioral characteristics that are necessary for the survival and advancement of a species?
 
But, then again, what dictates the "beneficiary evolutionary purpose"? In other words, how does evolution decide upon the behavioral characteristics that are necessary for the survival and advancement of a species?

By having the ones that aren't necessary die out :dunno
 
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