Hot Toys MMS 446 - The Last Jedi Rey (Jedi Training)

[Goldeeh]

I realize I'm about to have 92739383490283 people crap on me for asking this question, but here goes anyway...

Would anyone consider parting out/selling me their porgs, if they don't want them?

To barbecue?


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[Vortex]

We never got a snippet of the chosen one being trained in the films. It was only implied.

 

[Turtle882]

I know I'm going to regret this, I usually stay out of the TLA talk, but to me, these things seem apparent:

Rey was already a strong, capable / skilled combatant.

While she was stuck on Jakku and had plenty of time to learn how to defend herself out of necessity. By the time we meet her in TFA, she's already exceptional with her staff which plays well into her ability to swing a lightsaber at the end of TFA.

She also has above average climbing skills thanks to her scavenging day job inside the wrecked ships. Her intro climbing scene foreshadows her free climbing escape on Starkiller base.

And then she holds her own against Kyo Ren in a duel even before remembering to tap into the force.

So, by comparison, given what the movies tell us, Rey is stronger, more skilled and more capable going into TLA than Luke was going into ESB. Does she need more physical training from Luke? My opinion is no based on what we already know about her. But she still gets about the same training that Luke got from Yoda.

I know my opinion is not everyone's but here's another way to look at it...

How many scenes of training did we get with Luke in ESB?
- Lifting rocks (tapping into the force)
- The vine swinging (physical) which I think leads right into...
- The cave confrontation (self discovery / mental)
- Conversations with Yoda (teaching moments)

How many scenes of training do we get with Rey on Ahch-To (g'bless you)?
- Sitting on the ledge and stretching out (tapping into the force)
- Lightsaber practice on the ledge (physical)
- The dark side mirror cove (self discovery / mental)
- Conversations with Luke (teaching moments)

Looks about the same to me. Maybe the issue here is that Yoda was a better teacher than Luke?

I just thought of another parallel, Yoda didn't want to train Luke for a variety of reasons similar to how Luke refused to train Rey. Their "training" mirrors each other in so many ways.

Anyway, thanks for pushing this issue. I enjoyed thinking through all this. You guys can rip me apart now.

My thoughts exactly. Very well said.

 

[SilverStar17]

I know I'm going to regret this, I usually stay out of the TLA talk, but to me, these things seem apparent:

Rey was already a strong, capable / skilled combatant.

While she was stuck on Jakku and had plenty of time to learn how to defend herself out of necessity. By the time we meet her in TFA, she's already exceptional with her staff which plays well into her ability to swing a lightsaber at the end of TFA.

She also has above average climbing skills thanks to her scavenging day job inside the wrecked ships. Her intro climbing scene foreshadows her free climbing escape on Starkiller base.

And then she holds her own against Kyo Ren in a duel even before remembering to tap into the force.

So, by comparison, given what the movies tell us, Rey is stronger, more skilled and more capable going into TLA than Luke was going into ESB. Does she need more physical training from Luke? My opinion is no based on what we already know about her. But she still gets about the same training that Luke got from Yoda.

I know my opinion is not everyone's but here's another way to look at it...

How many scenes of training did we get with Luke in ESB?
- Lifting rocks (tapping into the force)
- The vine swinging (physical) which I think leads right into...
- The cave confrontation (self discovery / mental)
- Conversations with Yoda (teaching moments)

How many scenes of training do we get with Rey on Ahch-To (g'bless you)?
- Sitting on the ledge and stretching out (tapping into the force)
- Lightsaber practice on the ledge (physical)
- The dark side mirror cove (self discovery / mental)
- Conversations with Luke (teaching moments)

Looks about the same to me. Maybe the issue here is that Yoda was a better teacher than Luke?

I just thought of another parallel, Yoda didn't want to train Luke for a variety of reasons similar to how Luke refused to train Rey. Their "training" mirrors each other in so many ways.

Anyway, thanks for pushing this issue. I enjoyed thinking through all this. You guys can rip me apart now.

Great analysis.

While I didn’t particularly care for TLJ overall as a film for various reasons, I also think it’s unfair to hold Rey’s lack of actual Jedi training against the character while simultaneously giving Luke a pass for the same lack of Jedi training, simply because it’s the OT.

I will add though, Yoda initially balked at the notion of training Luke, the way Luke did with Rey. However, Yoda capitulated and reluctantly trained Luke, genuinely trying to teach him how to be a Jedi. Luke I think reluctantly agreed to train Rey, hoping that she’d on her own see the perils of what it can ultimately lead to and that it would deter and dissuade her from wanting anything to do with the Force and the Jedi.

 

[Khev]

I know I'm going to regret this, I usually stay out of the TLA talk, but to me, these things seem apparent:

Rey was already a strong, capable / skilled combatant.

While she was stuck on Jakku and had plenty of time to learn how to defend herself out of necessity. By the time we meet her in TFA, she's already exceptional with her staff which plays well into her ability to swing a lightsaber at the end of TFA.

She also has above average climbing skills thanks to her scavenging day job inside the wrecked ships. Her intro climbing scene foreshadows her free climbing escape on Starkiller base.

And then she holds her own against Kyo Ren in a duel even before remembering to tap into the force.

So, by comparison, given what the movies tell us, Rey is stronger, more skilled and more capable going into TLA than Luke was going into ESB. Does she need more physical training from Luke? My opinion is no based on what we already know about her. But she still gets about the same training that Luke got from Yoda.

I know my opinion is not everyone's but here's another way to look at it...

How many scenes of training did we get with Luke in ESB?
- Lifting rocks (tapping into the force)
- The vine swinging (physical) which I think leads right into...
- The cave confrontation (self discovery / mental)
- Conversations with Yoda (teaching moments)

How many scenes of training do we get with Rey on Ahch-To (g'bless you)?
- Sitting on the ledge and stretching out (tapping into the force)
- Lightsaber practice on the ledge (physical)
- The dark side mirror cove (self discovery / mental)
- Conversations with Luke (teaching moments)

Looks about the same to me. Maybe the issue here is that Yoda was a better teacher than Luke?

I just thought of another parallel, Yoda didn't want to train Luke for a variety of reasons similar to how Luke refused to train Rey. Their "training" mirrors each other in so many ways.

Anyway, thanks for pushing this issue. I enjoyed thinking through all this. You guys can rip me apart now.

Fantastic post. Also both Luke and Yoda gave a speech to their pupils about how the Force is between all things and connects all things but Luke went the extra mile and made sure that Rey truly experienced the connection first-hand compared to Yoda who simply stated intellectual truths for Luke to mentally process. The Luke/Yoda scenes in ESB were perfect of course but I can see how Master Luke would have helped Rey learn quicker than when he was with Yoda.

 

[Superman-Prime]

Great analysis.

While I didn’t particularly care for TLJ overall as a film for various reasons, I also think it’s unfair to hold Rey’s lack of actual Jedi training against the character while simultaneously giving Luke a pass for the same lack of Jedi training, simply because it’s the OT.

I will add though, Yoda initially balked at the notion of training Luke, the way Luke did with Rey. However, Yoda capitulated and reluctantly trained Luke, genuinely trying to teach him how to be a Jedi. Luke I think reluctantly agreed to train Rey, hoping that she’d on her own see the perils of what it can ultimately lead to and that it would deter and dissuade her from wanting anything to do with the Force and the Jedi.

I think Luke and Rey are very different. While Luke didn’t get tons of training time...his powers didn’t develop overnight either. Rey day 1 of learning of the force is reading Kylo’s mind with the force, she mind controls the guard, she is having force visions, she makes the light saber fly to her with another force user trying to pull it as well, she out duels Kylo with a Saber although I give it a pass because he was hurt emotionally and physically.

Luke can barely move rocks and she is moving boulders by second movie. The explanation from Snoke...well the force leveled her up to face Kylo. It basically just makes her powerful cause Kylo’s strength puts force out of balance.

Meanwhile the force is out of balance when Luke faces Vader and he gets his arse handed to him by Vader in Bespin because he is not ready.

It’s like this character of Rey has no struggles. She is perfect at everything. She could even fly the Falcon better than Han.

Even the chosen one Anakin struggled...he got his arm cut off by Dooku.

My guess is JJ was going to explain Rey’s freakish power but then Johnson took over second movie. But who knows...the problem is they didn’t write the story all at one time. They are making crap up as the go along so it’s a bit of a mess. At least Lucas knew where he was going. So the criticism of Rey isn’t because she isn’t Luke or it’s not the OT. It’s she is a very poorly written character. Luke was on a hero’s journey. She is already a hero with no flaws and nothing to learn. She will win not because she overcomes evil but because the force levels her up and say it’s so.




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[Khev]

Rey has no struggles. She is perfect at everything. She could even fly the Falcon better than Han.

How do you figure that?

 

[Superman-Prime]

How do you figure that?

She is the best at everything she does the first time she does it. She even takes the moral high ground on multiple characters. What lessons has she learned?




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[Khev]

She is the best at everything she does the first time she does it. She even takes the moral high ground on multiple characters. What lessons has she learned?

While I disagree that she had no struggles and was perfect I actually meant how do you figure that she flew the Falcon better than Han? I don't recall her doing anything as impressive as him. Heck even in TFA itself he landed the ship at lightspeed which is pretty much the most impossible thing anyone's ever done.

 

[Superman-Prime]

While I disagree that she had no struggles and was perfect I actually meant how do you figure that she flew the Falcon better than Han? I don't recall her doing anything as impressive as him. Heck even in TFA itself he landed the ship at lightspeed which is pretty much the most impossible thing anyone's ever done.

The comparison to Han was a hyperbole. The flying she was doing on Jakku with Falcon was insane for first time getting behind the wheel. But like I said she is good at everything. She even told Han how to fix his own ship.


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[Khev]

The comparison to Han was a hyperbole.

Okay, you never know when it comes to Rey, lol.

 

[The Green Goblin]

The comparison to Han was a hyperbole. The flying she was doing on Jakku with Falcon was insane for first time getting behind the wheel. But like I said she is good at everything. She even told Han how to fix his own ship.


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Did you not see Solo and all the insane **** he pulled off flying the Falcon on his first try? Rey was crashing that hunk of junk all over Jakku, while Han was able to take off without a copilot and evade the Empire too, like he'd flown that ship for years already.

 

[SilverStar17]

I think Luke and Rey are very different. While Luke didn’t get tons of training time...his powers didn’t develop overnight either. Rey day 1 of learning of the force is reading Kylo’s mind with the force, she mind controls the guard, she is having force visions, she makes the light saber fly to her with another force user trying to pull it as well, she out duels Kylo with a Saber although I give it a pass because he was hurt emotionally and physically.

Luke can barely move rocks and she is moving boulders by second movie. The explanation from Snoke...well the force leveled her up to face Kylo. It basically just makes her powerful cause Kylo’s strength puts force out of balance.

Meanwhile the force is out of balance when Luke faces Vader and he gets his arse handed to him by Vader in Bespin because he is not ready.

It’s like this character of Rey has no struggles. She is perfect at everything. She could even fly the Falcon better than Han.

Even the chosen one Anakin struggled...he got his arm cut off by Dooku.

My guess is JJ was going to explain Rey’s freakish power but then Johnson took over second movie. But who knows...the problem is they didn’t write the story all at one time. They are making crap up as the go along so it’s a bit of a mess. At least Lucas knew where he was going. So the criticism of Rey isn’t because she isn’t Luke or it’s not the OT. It’s she is a very poorly written character. Luke was on a hero’s journey. She is already a hero with no flaws and nothing to learn. She will win not because she overcomes evil but because the force levels her up and say it’s so.




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I do concur with the majority of that. I was merely talking about from a Jedi training standpoint that she received about the same amount of actual Jedi training, as what Luke did.

I personally don't like the fact that Rey out dueled Ren though, despite him being injured emotionally and physically. I think that showed how weak Kylo is, more than it showed how strong Rey is.

However, I can understand how Rey had a bit of a leg up on Luke though going into TLJ more so than what Luke did going into ESB, being that she had to learn self survival skills from a young age whereas Luke was somewhat sheltered.

Did you not see Solo and all the insane **** he pulled off flying the Falcon on his first try? Rey was crashing that hunk of junk all over Jakku, while Han was able to take off without a copilot and evade the Empire too, like he'd flown that ship for years already.

I haven't seen Solo, but I'm going to presume that in Solo, the Falcon hadn't be languishing for the past 20+ years. Probably was in better working condition and a bit smoother running.

 

[hen88]

She is the best at everything she does the first time she does it. She even takes the moral high ground on multiple characters. What lessons has she learned?




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She has struggled a lot. Here’s a list:

- She is abandoned as a small child in a barren wasteland.
- She has no family and still hasn’t found any semblance of one.
- She has powers but doesn’t understand them or where they came from.
- She tries to get Luke to join the fight against the First Order and fails.
- She tries to turn Kylo Ren to the light and fails.
- She tries to resist Snoke and gets thrown around like a rag doll.
- She gets injured in the arm by the one of the praetorian guards.
- She reaches out to the dark side to find her parents and fails.

 

[IronPatriotFTW]

Seems to conveniently be forgotten that almost immediately of learning of the force and all, that Luke took a crazy percentage of a chance shot without a targeter on, and destroyed the “most powerful” weapon in the galaxy.... using the force.

Granted he enjoyed shooting the womprats and had some piloting skill, but still....

Also with minimal to zero lightsaber training, he went toe to toe, even though he lost a hand, with the most powerful saber fighter in the galaxy. And this isn’t a Rey vs Kylo era where force and saber weilders are few and far inbetween to fight. This was two eras that held sith, inquisitors, Jedi, among others.... all which Anakin/Vader bested. With a few exceptions like Ahsoka, Yoda, Kenobi... maybe some others. But he was good enough to keep things on lock for a good 40 years? (Sorry I know the time is probably off).

So I can accept the new stuff as much as the old. I just think the layout of the OT was better, and it’s what I grew up loving and aside from **** Ewok movies and a holiday special, we didn’t have the great amount of content for Star Wars that we have now.

But I’ve enjoyed all the new stuff overall as well, especially the animated series they have made.

I have not seen solo.

But a girl who works with vintage wreckage and absolutely needs to know what parts do what and how they work and benefit the ship as a whole , if only, to sell for food to live, I can absolutely understand how she might know a couple tricks that even Han didn’t. As for piloting skills, the force was probably at play, as well as a family heritage that was either cleverly lied about by kylo, or rewritten by a new director in the follow up. Maybe it was never intended to be important, but some stuff hints at it in the movies imo.

 

[IronPatriotFTW]

I’ll just leave George Lucas’s grand plans here
https://io9.gizmodo.com/george-lucas-ideas-for-his-own-star-wars-sequel-trilogy-1826798496

 

[earthdog]

The comparison to Han was a hyperbole. The flying she was doing on Jakku with Falcon was insane for first time getting behind the wheel. But like I said she is good at everything. She even told Han how to fix his own ship.


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You’re right, she IS good at everything. She’s very strong with the Force. The Jedi don’t usually struggle with many things.

Rey’s struggles are internal; being abandoned, never knowing who her parents, who she is, where she belongs, etc.

I get the impression you don’t like her character and I’m not trying to change your mind. Here’s what I saw in the movie...

She knew how to fix the Falcon because she knew what modifications were made to it. Because she worked for Unkar Plutt. She even said she thought his modifications were dumb (paraphrasing).

Her life is stripping spaceships for parts. I can accept that she is mechanically inclined enough to know how these things go together and work. Maybe that’s too much of leap for some but for me, it holds true to the character as presented.


And Luke blew up the Death Star his first time in an X-Wing.


The simplest conclusion I can draw from that is the Force provides an extra heightened awareness that innately predisposes Luke and Rey (and, yes, even Anakin) to be exceptional pilots whether they know why or not.

 

[kurisuchie2kimi]

Her life is stripping spaceships for parts. I can accept that she is mechanically inclined enough to know how these things go together and work. Maybe that’s too much of leap for some but for me, it holds true to the character as presented.

Not to mention through all of this, Rey salvaged and repaired flight simulators and learned how to fly from those.

 

[WesMordine]

You’re right, she IS good at everything. She’s very strong with the Force. The Jedi don’t usually struggle with many things.

Rey’s struggles are internal; being abandoned, never knowing who her parents, who she is, where she belongs, etc.

I get the impression you don’t like her character and I’m not trying to change your mind. Here’s what I saw in the movie...

She knew how to fix the Falcon because she knew what modifications were made to it. Because she worked for Unkar Plutt. She even said she thought his modifications were dumb (paraphrasing).

Her life is stripping spaceships for parts. I can accept that she is mechanically inclined enough to know how these things go together and work. Maybe that’s too much of leap for some but for me, it holds true to the character as presented.


And Luke blew up the Death Star his first time in an X-Wing.


The simplest conclusion I can draw from that is the Force provides an extra heightened awareness that innately predisposes Luke and Rey (and, yes, even Anakin) to be exceptional pilots whether they know why or not.

This!

She is no more adept than the only human who could race pods at AGE 9. Or the farmboy that was the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim.

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[facemaker]

Fanning the flames again... You already know the answers to your questions. You're just trolling all the threads that have to do with TLJ, especially the female characters. And if there aren't enough TLJ threads to satisfy your trolling desires, you create new ones like you did yesterday with the Rose threads. But then they get erased. Poor you.

Yeah,..do what? OH right, it's because they are female and not because their characters are more shallow than a puddle and the writing is piss poor.

There was nothing wrong with the posts I created regarding Rose. Some of YOU made something wrong out of it almost immediately and then the deleting, hahahahahahaha shows how many Nazi Libs are running this show.

Having an opinion I can discuss with intellectual insight isn't really trolling my friend. It makes me sad so many of you wouldn't know a good film if it smacked you in the face Jamie Foxx style.