Hot Toys MMS 446 - The Last Jedi Rey (Jedi Training)

[facemaker]

I know I'm going to regret this, I usually stay out of the TLA talk, but to me, these things seem apparent:

Rey was already a strong, capable / skilled combatant.

While she was stuck on Jakku and had plenty of time to learn how to defend herself out of necessity. By the time we meet her in TFA, she's already exceptional with her staff which plays well into her ability to swing a lightsaber at the end of TFA.

She also has above average climbing skills thanks to her scavenging day job inside the wrecked ships. Her intro climbing scene foreshadows her free climbing escape on Starkiller base.

And then she holds her own against Kyo Ren in a duel even before remembering to tap into the force.

So, by comparison, given what the movies tell us, Rey is stronger, more skilled and more capable going into TLA than Luke was going into ESB. Does she need more physical training from Luke? My opinion is no based on what we already know about her. But she still gets about the same training that Luke got from Yoda.

I know my opinion is not everyone's but here's another way to look at it...

How many scenes of training did we get with Luke in ESB?
- Lifting rocks (tapping into the force)
- The vine swinging (physical) which I think leads right into...
- The cave confrontation (self discovery / mental)
- Conversations with Yoda (teaching moments)

How many scenes of training do we get with Rey on Ahch-To (g'bless you)?
- Sitting on the ledge and stretching out (tapping into the force)
- Lightsaber practice on the ledge (physical)
- The dark side mirror cove (self discovery / mental)
- Conversations with Luke (teaching moments)

Looks about the same to me. Maybe the issue here is that Yoda was a better teacher than Luke?

I just thought of another parallel, Yoda didn't want to train Luke for a variety of reasons similar to how Luke refused to train Rey. Their "training" mirrors each other in so many ways.

Anyway, thanks for pushing this issue. I enjoyed thinking through all this. You guys can rip me apart now.

um,....Luke was the son of Darth Vader.........
His lineage makes sense with the arc of his character.

Just for the record, how many women samurai's were there?

Kylo is the grandson of Vader and the son of Lea who is apparently the strongest force user ever according to Rian Johnson's script.

Yet, Kylo looks like a little pansy when fighting Rey literally getting bested in every scene with her.

You guys really work hard to justify trash and the shills are strong with the force.

 

[DioramaMaker]

She's a gurl so she shouldn't be able to do the cool stuff. Duh. Everyone knows that.

 

[earthdog]

um,....Luke was the son of Darth Vader.........
His lineage makes sense with the arc of his character.

Just for the record, how many women samurai's were there?

Kylo is the grandson of Vader and the son of Lea who is apparently the strongest force user ever according to Rian Johnson's script.

Yet, Kylo looks like a little pansy when fighting Rey literally getting bested in every scene with her.

You guys really work hard to justify trash and the shills are strong with the force.

Women samurai? In Star Wars? None.

But I think understand the point you’re trying to make. Best of luck to you with that.

Just for the record, there are also no male Samurai in Star Wars either.

 

[facemaker]

She's a gurl so she shouldn't be able to do the cool stuff. Duh. Everyone knows that.

Look, I actually was really ok with Rey after the Force Awakens. I liked her character "ok" and the fact she was a girl did not bother me at all. (ok, the Ace Falcon flying from jump and the "mind control scene" did really push the suspension of disbelief,....but I played along)

I was as excited to see where her character was going as anyone. I anticipated 'The Last Jedi' more than any film in my life previously.

After 'Looper' I really though Rian Johnson was going to pull something special off. I though the script from 'Looper' had great writing and showed his ability to craft a film with layers. I was literally telling anyone who would listen 'The Last Jedi' IS GOING TO BE AWESOME BECAUSE I BELIEVE RIAN JOHNSON CAN WRITE SOMETHING NEXT LEVEL. I went opening weekend with 2 of my best friends and my wife and was anticipating something amazing and historic in it's own right.

Unfortunately, the film contained many of the things I just referenced. Problem is, they were done in a way akin to shaving against the grain with a dull razor.

Johnson completely mis-handled a great opportunity to really galvanize Rey's character in the hearts and minds of fans. Period.

He also undermined the lore and mythology of the basic story while writing in characters who motivations served little to no purpose.

 

[Robianco]

Look, I actually was really ok with Rey after the Force Awakens. I liked her character "ok" and the fact she was a girl did not bother me at all. (ok, the Ace Falcon flying from jump and the "mind control scene" did really push the suspension of disbelief,....but I played along)

I was as excited to see where her character was going as anyone. I anticipated 'The Last Jedi' more than any film in my life previously.

After 'Looper' I really though Rian Johnson was going to pull something special off. I though the script from 'Looper' had great writing and showed his ability to craft a film with layers. I was literally telling anyone who would listen 'The Last Jedi' IS GOING TO BE AWESOME BECAUSE I BELIEVE RIAN JOHNSON CAN WRITE SOMETHING NEXT LEVEL. I went opening weekend with 2 of my best friends and my wife and was anticipating something amazing and historic in it's own right.

Unfortunately, the film contained many of the things I just referenced. Problem is, they were done in a way akin to shaving against the grain with a dull razor.

Johnson completely mis-handled a great opportunity to really galvanize Rey's character in the hearts and minds of fans. Period.

He also undermined the lore and mythology of the basic story while writing in characters who motivations served little to no purpose.

Who are you and what have you done with facemaker?

 

[Sithblade]

Who are you and what have you done with facemaker?

Robianco

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[hen88]

Yeah,..do what? OH right, it's because they are female and not because their characters are more shallow than a puddle and the writing is piss poor.

There was nothing wrong with the posts I created regarding Rose. Some of YOU made something wrong out of it almost immediately and then the deleting, hahahahahahaha shows how many Nazi Libs are running this show.

Having an opinion I can discuss with intellectual insight isn't really trolling my friend. It makes me sad so many of you wouldn't know a good film if it smacked you in the face Jamie Foxx style.

Calling people “Nazi Libs” is not an intellectual argument. Your sexist rants are tiresome and do nothing but spread negativity and hate. You can have your opinion (no matter how twisted and backwards it is), but others get to have a dissenting opinion about your opinion. That’s the way free speech works.


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[WesMordine]

Lets not feed the troll.

We have literally seen all of ONE WEEK of Rey's life. I really like her. She's caring, sincere, unafraid and strong. And pretty, too.

We don't even know for sure if she doesn't carry the blood of Vader herself. Episode IX will settle that.

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[facemaker]

Calling people “Nazi Libs” is not an intellectual argument. Your sexist rants are tiresome and do nothing but spread negativity and hate. You can have your opinion (no matter how twisted and backwards the is), but others get to have a dissenting opinion about your opinion. That’s the way free speech works.


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Fair enough,...closing a thread asking interest in a certain figure is pretty petty man. And, very much like the information control we have going on with some extreme left members (See FBI). Funny thing is, I have always identified as "liberal", but that definition has become way to broad lately. When people openly advocate for something others did not like just so they can derive some weird, twisted satisfaction out of it that tells me what made most of this special has passed.

Also Hen,....what is sexist man? Clearly you are one of the extreme lefties because there must always be a word with 'ist' at the end in your rebuttals.

Disagreeing with the poor writing of a characters arc is not sexism dude.

But right,...everyone who didn't like the movie and characters is a Racist, Misogynistic, Homophobe, Zenophobe, Sexist neck beardy troll.

 

[facemaker]

Who are you and what have you done with facemaker?

it's me buddy. Those are my feelings on it.

 

[Saintv1]

It’s like this character of Rey has no struggles. She is perfect at everything. She could even fly the Falcon better than Han.

Rey fails, to one degree or another, at most of her stated goals in The Last Jedi.

Rey wants to know who her parents are to understand her place in this conflict. She fails, and it's only the grace of Kylo Ren that reveals her parentage--which ultimately doesn't tell her anything about her place, leaving this emotionally unresolved and still a fail.

Rey wants Luke to join the resistance. She fails at this for most of the movie, and when she finally succeeds, it's too late, almost everybody dies, and because she couldn't convince Luke to join her while there was still time, Luke had to force project to intervene, which kills him. So this is a fail.

Rey wants Luke to train her. Luke says he will, which seems like a success, but really he's only trying to convince her she's wrong to want to be trained, and then he tries to get rid of her anyway. So this is a fail.

Rey wants to turn Kylo Ren to the light. This is a hard fail.

I don't know how we can keep claiming that Rey is perfect or has no struggles. Rey may overcome superficial physical and force challenges with ease, but TLJ is basically a catalogue of her failing at her actual goals. Her single unqualified success is in saving the rebels in the finale, really.

Luke is the most well-realized character in the film, probably, but Rey and Kylo round out the top three, in no particular order.

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[Robianco]

As much as my biggest bugbear about the ST is that it wasn't written as a whole and then divided into three parts (I'm still not sure why each director needs to write a film in isolation too), but I'd be happy with Rey being another 'vergence in the force' as Qui-Gonn put it. The way I saw Rey in TFA was someone who could channel other people's Force use... She could do the mind trick after Kylo had, Learn Sabre use when duelling Kylo etc... If her 'parents' really were nobody in the same way Shmi Skywalker was a nobody. If JJ wrote it that Rey was the prophecy come true after all rather than Anakin then I'm OK with that.

 

[SilverStar17]

Talk about TLJDS (The Last Jedi Derangement Syndrome) to the max. This film seems to have really affected some people’s mental health due to them still just seething with rage over it, six months later.

 

[facemaker]

Rey fails, to one degree or another, at most of her stated goals in The Last Jedi.

Rey wants to know who her parents are to understand her place in this conflict. She fails, and it's only the grace of Kylo Ren that reveals her parentage--which ultimately doesn't tell her anything about her place, leaving this emotionally unresolved and still a fail.

Rey wants Luke to join the resistance. She fails at this for most of the movie, and when she finally succeeds, it's too late, almost everybody dies, and because she couldn't convince Luke to join her while there was still time, Luke had to force project to intervene, which kills him. So this is a fail.

Rey wants Luke to train her. Luke says he will, which seems like a success, but really he's only trying to convince her she's wrong to want to be trained, and then he tries to get rid of her anyway. So this is a fail.

Rey wants to turn Kylo Ren to the light. This is a hard fail.

I don't know how we can keep claiming that Rey is perfect or has no struggles. Rey may overcome superficial physical and force challenges with ease, but TLJ is basically a catalogue of her failing at her actual goals. Her single unqualified success is in saving the rebels in the finale, really.

Luke is the most well-realized character in the film, probably, but Rey and Kylo round out the top three, in no particular order.

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You are passionate Mozart,...but fail to persuade....

When needed most, there she was holding up a mountain full of boulders at the end. No Fail.

 

[Khev]

You are passionate Mozart,...but fail to persuade....

When needed most, there she was holding up a mountain full of boulders at the end. No Fail.

So if in your mind "finally succeeding when it counts at the end of the movie" equals "never failing ever" then I guess no hero in any movie in history has ever failed ever...

 

[The Green Goblin]

As much as my biggest bugbear about the ST is that it wasn't written as a whole and then divided into three parts (I'm still not sure why each director needs to write a film in isolation too), but I'd be happy with Rey being another 'vergence in the force' as Qui-Gonn put it. The way I saw Rey in TFA was someone who could channel other people's Force use... She could do the mind trick after Kylo had, Learn Sabre use when duelling Kylo etc... If her 'parents' really were nobody in the same way Shmi Skywalker was a nobody. If JJ wrote it that Rey was the prophecy come true after all rather than Anakin then I'm OK with that.

nobody writes movies like that-- unless you're the creative team behind The Hobbit trilogy

 

[hen88]

Fair enough,...closing a thread asking interest in a certain figure is pretty petty man. And, very much like the information control we have going on with some extreme left members (See FBI). Funny thing is, I have always identified as "liberal", but that definition has become way to broad lately. When people openly advocate for something others did not like just so they can derive some weird, twisted satisfaction out of it that tells me what made most of this special has passed.

Also Hen,....what is sexist man? Clearly you are one of the extreme lefties because there must always be a word with 'ist' at the end in your rebuttals.

Disagreeing with the poor writing of a characters arc is not sexism dude.

But right,...everyone who didn't like the movie and characters is a Racist, Misogynistic, Homophobe, Zenophobe, Sexist neck beardy troll.

Yeah - but then you throw in this little gem: "Just for the record, how many women samurai's were there?" FYI - there were female samurai: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onna-bugeisha

Also - your whole argument is that Rey is a Mary Sue (also a misogynistic term) and that she has not earned true hero status. Yet - you have a double standard which is much higher for her because she's a woman. Earthdog pointed out that Rey's training time was pretty much proportional to Luke's. But Luke gets a pass and is therefore not a Mary Sue because he's got Skywalker blood. That's a pretty low standard. What you're saying is that he's entitled to his powers, but she's a Mary Sue. You've also made a series of comments in the past dumping on the "feminst agenda" and "SJWs." And your regular targets are Kathleen Kennedy, Rose, and Holdo. You're not fooling anyone.

 

[IronPatriotFTW]

As much as my biggest bugbear about the ST is that it wasn't written as a whole and then divided into three parts (I'm still not sure why each director needs to write a film in isolation too), but I'd be happy with Rey being another 'vergence in the force' as Qui-Gonn put it. The way I saw Rey in TFA was someone who could channel other people's Force use... She could do the mind trick after Kylo had, Learn Sabre use when duelling Kylo etc... If her 'parents' really were nobody in the same way Shmi Skywalker was a nobody. If JJ wrote it that Rey was the prophecy come true after all rather than Anakin then I'm OK with that.

I don’t even care if they try to rewrite it because my minds already made up...

Anakin WAS/IS the chosen one, and he did bring balance to to force....

 

[Superman-Prime]

I do concur with the majority of that. I was merely talking about from a Jedi training standpoint that she received about the same amount of actual Jedi training, as what Luke did.

I personally don't like the fact that Rey out dueled Ren though, despite him being injured emotionally and physically. I think that showed how weak Kylo is, more than it showed how strong Rey is.

However, I can understand how Rey had a bit of a leg up on Luke though going into TLJ more so than what Luke did going into ESB, being that she had to learn self survival skills from a young age whereas Luke was somewhat sheltered.

I agree Rey is a better fighter than Luke from when he started out. She grew up in a more hostile environment for sure and it made her physically and emotionally tough. Both had very little training as well. I always felt Luke was a shadow of what the Jedi once were and he basically won against Vader because he was getting old and run down. Luke knew enough and was learning to use the force. So when we see Anakin and Obi-Wan in there prime, I’m like wow....that is what a trained Jedi looks like. Holy crap!!

I talked about Rey not having alot of struggles...it was not related to her background or emotions....it was regarding her obtaining her skills....gaining strength from the force.

She is doing things that Kylo can’t even believe and he was in Lukes academy. Having her beat Kylo first movie kinda sucks too....cause where do you go now. She beat him when she knew nothing....she will clean the floor with him now. What is there to really see in Episode 9? The only question is will she redeem Kylo. I’m not looking forward to the duel because we seen her win already.

I think they just made her overpowered and explanation was well Kylo is so strong the force made her equal to balance things out. That seems like a departure from a lot of the mythology.

I would not be opposed to this being Kylo’s story..a reverse Luke. He fully embraces the dark side and defeats resistance and Rey...or turns her and rules the galaxy!!! Sometimes the bad guy wins. Maybe broom kid can beat him later but for know...Kylo went from whining conflicted boy to Vader level....this is what it would look like if Anakin didn’t get messed up by Obi-Wan and eventually overthrew the emperor. It would take a lot of guts to tell that story but it would be different.


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[Smash]

Rey fails, to one degree or another, at most of her stated goals in The Last Jedi.

Rey wants to know who her parents are to understand her place in this conflict. She fails, and it's only the grace of Kylo Ren that reveals her parentage--which ultimately doesn't tell her anything about her place, leaving this emotionally unresolved and still a fail.

Rey wants Luke to join the resistance. She fails at this for most of the movie, and when she finally succeeds, it's too late, almost everybody dies, and because she couldn't convince Luke to join her while there was still time, Luke had to force project to intervene, which kills him. So this is a fail.

Rey wants Luke to train her. Luke says he will, which seems like a success, but really he's only trying to convince her she's wrong to want to be trained, and then he tries to get rid of her anyway. So this is a fail.

Rey wants to turn Kylo Ren to the light. This is a hard fail.

I don't know how we can keep claiming that Rey is perfect or has no struggles. Rey may overcome superficial physical and force challenges with ease, but TLJ is basically a catalogue of her failing at her actual goals. Her single unqualified success is in saving the rebels in the finale, really.

Luke is the most well-realized character in the film, probably, but Rey and Kylo round out the top three, in no particular order.

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Good post. I'm really tired of explaining to people how Rey fails/struggles to everyone. I feel some like people need a subtitle to pop up for them to understand anything that isn't getting a limb chopped off.

Adding to what happened with Kylo in TLJ - this was her biggest **** up in the movie. Not only does she strand Luke there on the island, but her going to Kylo is what gives him the opportunity to kill Snoke. At the start of the movie Kylo sizes up Snoke and his guards, and it's clear he can't take them on his own. Rey is naive enough to believe that Ben will "do the right thing" even when he tells her right before, "nah you'll turn", and pretty much everything else she ignored.

So instead of driving Kylo closer to the light and bringing him back, she helps him take over the first order and push himself deeper in with the dark side and the FO.

I also don't get how people think Rey is a GOD. Did she learn the force quickly? Yes. Has she done anything extremely powerful or anything we've never seen other jedi do casually? Nope.

And for her beating Kylo - it's an important narrative to Kylo's arc. If you want to know why it makes sense in terms of just the events - Kylo was just show with a bowcaster in the gut which messed him up, killed his dad which messed him up, and was hit by Finn and probably a bit tired from that as well. To add to that, there's no evidence whatsoever that Kylo has ever been in a lightsaber duel previously. Rey knows how to fight with melee weapons, so that's fine. And even then, she lost like 90% of the fight and is running away until the force deal kicks in. Which is basically the same **** we get with Luke in ANH, Anakin, etc.. is it kinda cheesy that the force helps out at convenient times? Sure, but that's every Star Wars movie. And not just with the force, tons of stuff like that happens.

Furthermore, as I mentioned it's important to the narrative. The ST is more or less the story of Kylo through Rey's eyes. All of the events and everything that happens in the trilogy is basically because of Kylo. He is the Skywalker/Solo of the trilogy, and frankly he has more character development than Rey.

Kylo lost to Rey because it's important for his character, he thought he was a big baddy - then he gets bested by a girl who isn't even trained. He's humiliated, and out to prove himself in TLJ. This also plays a lot into Snoke giving Kylo **** about what a failure he is, how weak he is, which pushes Kylo to kill Snoke. He probably would have anyway, but I think it probably made it happen sooner.

If you look at second acts in a movie (or second films in trilogies), the main character usually suffers a pretty big defeat in the second movie. Yes, Rey and the Resistance lose in TLJ but the character that is in the worst shape at the end is Kylo. He was just humiliated by Luke in front of the entire FO, and has realized he lost everything. He has everything that he thought he wanted, everything Vader wanted, he's the first Skywalker to rule the Galaxy. But the last scene of him, he's completely defeated.

Pretty sure in IX, they'll duel again - Kylo will beat Rey and then he will decide not to kill her. He is the only one that can "redeem" himself in any capacity, and he has to make that choice. If people don't think we are getting a redemption for Kylo with everything they've done with him, I think they need to watch the movies again. They're not ending the family tragically lol. In addition to that, if you look at parallels between Kylo/Anakin, and a lot of concept art from ep 3 - He's basically Anakin in reverse, and his dynamic with Rey is essentially Anakin and Padme reversed. It's all gonna come full circle in a big ole fairy tale way. People aren't gonna dig that because we're all 30-40 and edgy, but I'd be willing to wager a good amount we're going to get a happy ending to 9 =p

Anyway, this reminds me why I ignore these forums a lot more these days. I can't go into a thread about a figure without people bitching about the movies or the character. Like, if you don't like the character, why are you in the thread about their action figure? Just don't buy it.