Hot Toys MMS 446 - The Last Jedi Rey (Jedi Training)

[SilverStar17]

I agree Rey is a better fighter than Luke from when he started out. She grew up in a more hostile environment for sure and it made her physically and emotionally tough. Both had very little training as well. I always felt Luke was a shadow of what the Jedi once were and he basically won against Vader because he was getting old and run down. Luke knew enough and was learning to use the force. So when we see Anakin and Obi-Wan in there prime, I’m like wow....that is what a trained Jedi looks like. Holy crap!!

I talked about Rey not having alot of struggles...it was not related to her background or emotions....it was regarding her obtaining her skills....gaining strength from the force.

She is doing things that Kylo can’t even believe and he was in Lukes academy. Having her beat Kylo first movie kinda sucks too....cause where do you go now. She beat him when she knew nothing....she will clean the floor with him now. What is there to really see in Episode 9? The only question is will she redeem Kylo. I’m not looking forward to the duel because we seen her win already.

I think they just made her overpowered and explanation was well Kylo is so strong the force made her equal to balance things out. That seems like a departure from a lot of the mythology.

I would not be opposed to this being Kylo’s story..a reverse Luke. He fully embraces the dark side and defeats resistance and Rey...or turns her and rules the galaxy!!! Sometimes the bad guy wins. Maybe broom kid can beat him later but for know...Kylo went from whining conflicted boy to Vader level....this is what it would look like if Anakin didn’t get messed up by Obi-Wan and eventually overthrew the emperor. It would take a lot of guts to tell that story but it would be different.


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Yeah, I agree that I think they showed Rey's hand (in poker terms) too early in TFA. I also agree that she's had her fair share of struggles both physically and emotionally, mainly emotionally, so to assert that the character has been perfect at everything, like others on here have asserted, is a bit erroneous. I do think though there are some areas where they made her a bit too overpowered, such as the Kylo duel in TFA. All in all though, I like the character.

I'm honestly not sure what to make of Kylo at this point. He seemed the strongest to me on Jakku in the opening sequence of TFA. Subsequent that, to me he's just been a whiny snowflake who gets bested in one on one duels because he can't control his emotions. That's why I prefer his TFA figure with the helmet on, because to me it represents the character at what I feel so far has been his best.

Like you suggested and like neb stated though, I agree that I'm starting to think this is more the story of Kylo, than it is Rey. It's just being told through Rey's eyes.

 

[Superman-Prime]

For Neb.....


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[SilverStar17]

It was only recently I realized how erroneous that statement is.

There’s no such thing as “your truth”, or “our truth”. There’s the truth, and then there’s your opinion. What Obi-Wan told Luke was his opinion, not the truth. Since he left out the little, albeit game changing detail, that Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker....

...are the same guy.

 

[DarthAlias]

Rey fails, to one degree or another, at most of her stated goals in The Last Jedi.

Rey wants to know who her parents are to understand her place in this conflict. She fails, and it's only the grace of Kylo Ren that reveals her parentage--which ultimately doesn't tell her anything about her place, leaving this emotionally unresolved and still a fail.

Rey wants Luke to join the resistance. She fails at this for most of the movie, and when she finally succeeds, it's too late, almost everybody dies, and because she couldn't convince Luke to join her while there was still time, Luke had to force project to intervene, which kills him. So this is a fail.

Rey wants Luke to train her. Luke says he will, which seems like a success, but really he's only trying to convince her she's wrong to want to be trained, and then he tries to get rid of her anyway. So this is a fail.

Rey wants to turn Kylo Ren to the light. This is a hard fail.

I don't know how we can keep claiming that Rey is perfect or has no struggles. Rey may overcome superficial physical and force challenges with ease, but TLJ is basically a catalogue of her failing at her actual goals. Her single unqualified success is in saving the rebels in the finale, really.

Luke is the most well-realized character in the film, probably, but Rey and Kylo round out the top three, in no particular order.

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This is a great post. Everyone who discusses with me in person about TLJ doesn’t realize the whole movie is about failure. Literally every main character’s mission/objective fails in what they’re trying to accomplish. This was the first SW movie where everything isn’t laid out clearcut for the viewer. From the FO dreadnauggt being destroyed to the resistance fuel being depleated to Poe failing Leia to abort the mission. The whole movie is about accepting failure and overcoming. Many don’t see this and expect a lone star Luke to come in on a white horse and save the day. Even though he did just not in the way most would’ve wanted to see or agree with. I like they’re exploring other force powers from the Jedi order journal books too.

 

[earthdog]

This is a great post. Everyone who discusses with me in person about TLJ doesn’t realize the whole movie is about failure. Literally every main character’s mission/objective fails in what they’re trying to accomplish. This was the first SW movie where everything isn’t laid out clearcut for the viewer. From the FO dreadnauggt being destroyed to the resistance fuel being depleated to Poe failing Leia to abort the mission. The whole movie is about accepting failure and overcoming. Many don’t see this and expect a lone star Luke to come in on a white horse and save the day. Even though he did just not in the way most would’ve wanted to see or agree with. I like they’re exploring other force powers from the Jedi order journal books too.

I agree and I think the theme of recurring failure is a contributor in causing such strong emotional backlash. As a fan of the series (or having any knowledge of how a 3 act story structure works) you'd have to go in expect that act 2 will be dark and present many obstacles of the protagonists.

What audiences didn't expect, couldn't expect, was that almost every action results in a failure of some kind. Over and over again. Nearly every major scene subverted expectations in some way with a failure. That's very challenging to audiences who have 7 prior films full of rehashing, looping and echoing scenes and themes. TLA is like holding up a Bizarro Mirror to the Star Wars films that came before it.

TLA's structure is meticulously crafted to be subversive and challenging to what anyone knows a Star Wars film to be.

 

[Khev]

It gets even darker when you realize that Poe is literally responsible for the deaths of 85% of the Resistance. Spme people say "Holdo should have just told Poe the plan" but in the movie itself mere *seconds* after learning about the the plan to escape on transports Poe marched off and blabbed about it to Finn which caused DJ to hear it so that he could tell the FO.

85% of the Resistance literally gets wiped out because of Poe. If he had kept his mouth shut they would have all made it to Crait undetected without casualties, hell even negating the need to for Luke to show up (and *die*.) Who knows if Holdo herself might have found a way to survive with the FO chasing her alone. Poe freaking damn near wiped out everybody.

 

[Superman-Prime]

I agree and I think the theme of recurring failure is a contributor in causing such strong emotional backlash. As a fan of the series (or having any knowledge of how a 3 act story structure works) you'd have to go in expect that act 2 will be dark and present many obstacles of the protagonists.

What audiences didn't expect, couldn't expect, was that almost every action results in a failure of some kind. Over and over again. Nearly every major scene subverted expectations in some way with a failure. That's very challenging to audiences who have 7 prior films full of rehashing, looping and echoing scenes and themes. TLA is like holding up a Bizarro Mirror to the Star Wars films that came before it.

TLA's structure is meticulously crafted to be subversive and challenging to what anyone knows a Star Wars film to be.

Isn’t this just a rehash of ESB then..all they did in the whole movie was run and survive. The opening scene even started with them evacuating their base and running from empire...I mean first order. All of the ST movies so far have just been a rehash of what came before it. Except the body count is just much higher.

But the worst part is a beloved character died on a rock from a heart attack away from the battle. I was ok with movie at first but disappointed walking out. But I don’t understand people trying to defend this movie by trashing what came before it?? It’s built on what came before it. It can’t stand without the other movies.

This movie is not challenging because our hero’s failed or some unique theme. It’s challenging cause every scene with Rose and Finn feels like the movie grinds to a halt. It’s challenging because they killed yet another beloved character. It’s challenging because we got a slow dragged out chase scene that went through whole movie. It’s challenging cause of all the dumb decisions POE made. Honestly they should of executed him for insubordination and not following orders after the second time he got everyone killed. Leia should of not had gun on stun for him. It was challenging to sit through cause it was pretty boring movie when Rey and Kylo weren’t on the screen.

I’m glad a lot of people liked the movie. But don’t tell fans who didn’t like the movie it’s because the movie didn’t go by a rehashed formula and fans couldn’t except it. I found movie boring and characters made stupid decisions. Finn and Poe are terrible leaders and lack common sense. The movie took us no where cause it doesn’t know where it’s going. The studio hasn’t written it yet. They are making the stuff up as they go along which is crazy for a trilogy. Johnson blew up so much stuff and set the trilogy back to zero with his decisions..they are thinking about extending actors so the can make two more films to wrap up story. There are like 5 people left in Rebellion. It’s really a hard movie to defend.


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[Rorywan]

It gets even darker when you realize that Poe is literally responsible for the deaths of 85% of the Resistance. Spme people say "Holdo should have just told Poe the plan" but in the movie itself mere *seconds* after learning about the the plan to escape on transports Poe marched off and blabbed about it to Finn which caused DJ to hear it so that he could tell the FO.

85% of the Resistance literally gets wiped out because of Poe. If he had kept his mouth shut they would have all made it to Crait undetected without casualties, hell even negating the need to for Luke to show up (and *die*.) Who knows if Holdo herself might have found a way to survive with the FO chasing her alone. Poe freaking damn near wiped out everybody.

yeah.. but. If Poe hadn't broken orders in the first place there would have been 100% casualties, as the dreadnaught would have obliterated everyone.
It's just such a messy narrative. It's very "last jedi" story telling, i want to make an external (possibly PC) point - I don't care about logic or narrative - you will follow my story lead. Well, I.. for one don't, and expect better writing. I love these characters, even the new ones. I want to be on board.

Every male in TLJ is weak, evil, misguided and has to be shown a lesson by a female. Prove me otherwise. That's very substandard sexist writing. It's 2018. We need better if we really want to break down racist and sexist stereotypes in movies.

 

[Vitron5]

yeah.. but. If Poe hadn't broken orders in the first place there would have been 100% casualties, as the dreadnaught would have obliterated everyone.
It's just such a messy narrative. It's very "last jedi" story telling, i want to make an external (possibly PC) point - I don't care about logic or narrative - you will follow my story lead. Well, I.. for one don't, and expect better writing. I love these characters, even the new ones. I want to be on board.

Every male in TLJ is weak, evil, misguided and has to be shown a lesson by a female. Prove me otherwise. That's very substandard sexist writing. It's 2018. We need better if we really want to break down racist and sexist stereotypes in movies.

This is what I struggle to get past. It is literally every male in the TLJ fitting one of those characteristics and needing his lesson. I cannot accept that this view is misogynistic or sexist or whatever, it's real and in your face constantly. I thoroughly enjoyed the strong female characters in RO and Solo (Enfys was great). My take is about this particular movie and not something deeper.

 

[Khev]

yeah.. but. If Poe hadn't broken orders in the first place there would have been 100% casualties, as the dreadnaught would have obliterated everyone.
It's just such a messy narrative. It's very "last jedi" story telling, i want to make an external (possibly PC) point - I don't care about logic or narrative - you will follow my story lead. Well, I.. for one don't, and expect better writing. I love these characters, even the new ones. I want to be on board.

Every male in TLJ is weak, evil, misguided and has to be shown a lesson by a female. Prove me otherwise. That's very substandard sexist writing. It's 2018. We need better if we really want to break down racist and sexist stereotypes in movies.

That is an interesting point about the Dreadnaught. That really was Hux's ace in the hole for wiping out the Resistance and you can see how his plan to keep pace behind Leia's fleet would have been victorious were the Dreadnaught still there picking off the ships from behind.

And I don't recall Luke learning any lessons from a female. He was prompted to train Rey by R2 and prompted to go help the Resistance by Yoda.

 

[RandomHero]

I have a lot of problems with The Last Jedi, but honestly, the Luke/Rey scenes aren't among them. There's so much similarity between Luke and Rey and it's uncanny, and I have to wonder if the OT was made today, people would hate Luke just as much as they hate Rey.

-Luke blew up a Death Star the first time he flew an X-Wing. It was established he was a good pilot.
-Rey escaped pursuit on Jakku the first time she flew the Falcon (poorly at first). It was established she was a good pilot.

-Luke took on Darth Vader in his first lightsaber duel. He held his own.
-Rey took on Kylo Ren in her first lightsaber duel. She held her own.

-Yoda didn't want to train Luke to be a Jedi. Obi-Wan intervened. Luke was trained.
-Luke didn't want to train Rey to be a Jedi. R2-D2 intervened. Rey was trained.

-Luke tried to convince Darth Vader to turn to the light and not take him to Palpatine. He failed.
-Rey tried to convince Kylo Ren to turn to the light and not take her to Snoke. She failed.

-Luke was gifted with the Force, and was able to guide missiles to destroy the Death Star the first time he tapped into it.
-Rey was gifted with the Force, and was able to move a mountain to rescue her friends the first time she tapped into it.

I've never hated Rey, I thought she's always been an interesting character and even though she's seemingly good at everything - so was Luke. They're the heroes of the story, and in this world of fictional stories, sometimes heroes are just better at things than the average character.

My problems with The Last Jedi are basically all of the other nonsense that happened throughout the film.

-Leia flying through the vacuum of space with some magical Force powers no one knew she had
-Leia surviving her flight through space after beginning to crystalize, and then immediately going into a coma.
-Admiral Ackbar having an off screen death
-Admiral Holdo being an entirely incompetent leader that hid her plans under a shroud of secrecy and got a lot of people killed.
-Poe becoming an entirely incompetent leader after being established as a skilled pilot and brilliant commander
-Rose. Oh my god, Rose.
-The entire Canto Bight sequence. Boring, and a waste of time. Accomplished nothing, except to serve as an animal rights PSA.
-Phasma getting screwed over with a small amount of screen time, and a pointless exit to the film. Again.
-Using hyperdrive as a plot device. Twice.
-Hux, the only interesting character in the First Order, being entirely emasculated by Kylo Ren.
-Rose. Again. I hate her. She better be dead early in the next movie.
-The First Order/Resistance ship chase through space. Felt like the galactic version of Speed. Needed Keenu Reeves. Or a bus.
-Chewie getting like 27 seconds of screen time.
-Leia NOT dying, because now they have absolutely nowhere to go with her character.

I have plenty of problems with the film, none of which involve Rey. I've said several times that Rey, Hux and Poe were the only interesting characters to me that are original to the ST. Hux and Poe kind of got dicked over in this movie, and Kylo became a little more interesting. Still, Rey is not the problem with the ST, and you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

 

[Saintv1]

It blows my mind that Leila in space bothers people. There’s no mass in space. If you can pull an object to you with the force while under gravity, then you can pull yourself to an object in space.


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[WesMordine]

It blows my mind that Leila in space bothers people. There’s no mass in space. If you can pull an object to you with the force while under gravity, then you can pull yourself to an object in space.


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True.

Leia is a natural. Always was. InRotJ, she has no trouble mastering the speeder bike, for instance. Who knows how many times her actions were enhanced, probably without her knowing, by her intense connection to the Force.

Add to that, 30 years. She may have had some very fundamental training with Luke. Being his twin, she had the same potential as him.

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[Khev]

I have a lot of problems with The Last Jedi, but honestly, the Luke/Rey scenes aren't among them. There's so much similarity between Luke and Rey and it's uncanny, and I have to wonder if the OT was made today, people would hate Luke just as much as they hate Rey.

-Luke blew up a Death Star the first time he flew an X-Wing. It was established he was a good pilot.
-Rey escaped pursuit on Jakku the first time she flew the Falcon (poorly at first). It was established she was a good pilot.

-Luke took on Darth Vader in his first lightsaber duel. He held his own.
-Rey took on Kylo Ren in her first lightsaber duel. She held her own.

-Yoda didn't want to train Luke to be a Jedi. Obi-Wan intervened. Luke was trained.
-Luke didn't want to train Rey to be a Jedi. R2-D2 intervened. Rey was trained.

-Luke tried to convince Darth Vader to turn to the light and not take him to Palpatine. He failed.
-Rey tried to convince Kylo Ren to turn to the light and not take her to Snoke. She failed.

-Luke was gifted with the Force, and was able to guide missiles to destroy the Death Star the first time he tapped into it.
-Rey was gifted with the Force, and was able to move a mountain to rescue her friends the first time she tapped into it.

I've never hated Rey, I thought she's always been an interesting character and even though she's seemingly good at everything - so was Luke. They're the heroes of the story, and in this world of fictional stories, sometimes heroes are just better at things than the average character.

Excellent post though I will disagree with this bit:

-Luke took on Darth Vader in his first lightsaber duel. He held his own.
-Rey took on Kylo Ren in her first lightsaber duel. She held her own.

I don't think that anyone can reasonably argue that Luke "held his own" against Vader in ESB. But I do agree that Luke and Rey's first showdown with their opponent had similarly dire results:

1. Luke first faces Vader on Cloud City, tries to kill him but gets his *** handed to him.
2. Rey first faces Kylo Ren in the forest of Takodana, tries to kill him but gets her *** handed to her.

People often forget that Starkiller Base was not the first time Rey and Kylo faced each other and that she didn't always beat him at everything. He defeated her soundly during their first encounter even when she had a ranged weapon and he did not.

 

[WesMordine]

Good post. I'm really tired of explaining to people how Rey fails/struggles to everyone. I feel some like people need a subtitle to pop up for them to understand anything that isn't getting a limb chopped off.

Adding to what happened with Kylo in TLJ - this was her biggest **** up in the movie. Not only does she strand Luke there on the island, but her going to Kylo is what gives him the opportunity to kill Snoke. At the start of the movie Kylo sizes up Snoke and his guards, and it's clear he can't take them on his own. Rey is naive enough to believe that Ben will "do the right thing" even when he tells her right before, "nah you'll turn", and pretty much everything else she ignored.

So instead of driving Kylo closer to the light and bringing him back, she helps him take over the first order and push himself deeper in with the dark side and the FO.

I also don't get how people think Rey is a GOD. Did she learn the force quickly? Yes. Has she done anything extremely powerful or anything we've never seen other jedi do casually? Nope.

And for her beating Kylo - it's an important narrative to Kylo's arc. If you want to know why it makes sense in terms of just the events - Kylo was just show with a bowcaster in the gut which messed him up, killed his dad which messed him up, and was hit by Finn and probably a bit tired from that as well. To add to that, there's no evidence whatsoever that Kylo has ever been in a lightsaber duel previously. Rey knows how to fight with melee weapons, so that's fine. And even then, she lost like 90% of the fight and is running away until the force deal kicks in. Which is basically the same **** we get with Luke in ANH, Anakin, etc.. is it kinda cheesy that the force helps out at convenient times? Sure, but that's every Star Wars movie. And not just with the force, tons of stuff like that happens.

Furthermore, as I mentioned it's important to the narrative. The ST is more or less the story of Kylo through Rey's eyes. All of the events and everything that happens in the trilogy is basically because of Kylo. He is the Skywalker/Solo of the trilogy, and frankly he has more character development than Rey.

Kylo lost to Rey because it's important for his character, he thought he was a big baddy - then he gets bested by a girl who isn't even trained. He's humiliated, and out to prove himself in TLJ. This also plays a lot into Snoke giving Kylo **** about what a failure he is, how weak he is, which pushes Kylo to kill Snoke. He probably would have anyway, but I think it probably made it happen sooner.

If you look at second acts in a movie (or second films in trilogies), the main character usually suffers a pretty big defeat in the second movie. Yes, Rey and the Resistance lose in TLJ but the character that is in the worst shape at the end is Kylo. He was just humiliated by Luke in front of the entire FO, and has realized he lost everything. He has everything that he thought he wanted, everything Vader wanted, he's the first Skywalker to rule the Galaxy. But the last scene of him, he's completely defeated.

Pretty sure in IX, they'll duel again - Kylo will beat Rey and then he will decide not to kill her. He is the only one that can "redeem" himself in any capacity, and he has to make that choice. If people don't think we are getting a redemption for Kylo with everything they've done with him, I think they need to watch the movies again. They're not ending the family tragically lol. In addition to that, if you look at parallels between Kylo/Anakin, and a lot of concept art from ep 3 - He's basically Anakin in reverse, and his dynamic with Rey is essentially Anakin and Padme reversed. It's all gonna come full circle in a big ole fairy tale way. People aren't gonna dig that because we're all 30-40 and edgy, but I'd be willing to wager a good amount we're going to get a happy ending to 9 =p

Anyway, this reminds me why I ignore these forums a lot more these days. I can't go into a thread about a figure without people bitching about the movies or the character. Like, if you don't like the character, why are you in the thread about their action figure? Just don't buy it.

Loved your post.

I have also become aprehensive about forums and comments sections because of the haters...

What will IX bring? How will they decide to tie up this bow? What will really be Rey's parentage? Will we see Anakin make a ghostly appearance? Exciting!

...if we ignore the impossible to please fans.

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[guyver1]

these forums..there is a TLJ thread to talk about character comparisons fellow freaks. Please try to stick to topic of the HT version of Rey.

That said, the more I see in hand pics that are popping up in FB of customers who received Jedi Rey, the more I like it.

However I think I can wait until after I get my funds straightened out . But you know, that’s what she said

 

[SilverStar17]

No need to avoid the forums altogether.

Just simply avoid a particular thread and wait until the momentary cable outage has passed of those who still feel the need to rage six months later on toy forums about how RJ ***** their childhood, and your normally televised program (discussion about the figure) resumes.

Loved your post.

I have also become aprehensive about forums and comments sections because of the haters...

What will IX bring? How will they decide to tie up this bow? What will really be Rey's parentage? Will we see Anakin make a ghostly appearance? Exciting!

...if we ignore the impossible to please fans.

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Have to disagree with this. You either want to talk about TLJ and the ST, or you don’t.

You can’t want TLJ/ST discussion only for those who like it, and then dislike whenever anyone with a dissenting opinion from yours interjects.

Though I do concur that there are many OT loyalists and worshippers, where the ST was DOA for them no matter what was done in the films.

 

[RandomHero]

I don't think that anyone can reasonably argue that Luke "held his own" against Vader in ESB. But I do agree that Luke and Rey's first showdown with their opponent had similarly dire results:

1. Luke first faces Vader on Cloud City, tries to kill him but gets his *** handed to him.
2. Rey first faces Kylo Ren in the forest of Takodana, tries to kill him but gets her *** handed to her.

People often forget that Starkiller Base was not the first time Rey and Kylo faced each other and that she didn't always beat him at everything. He defeated her soundly during their first encounter even when she had a ranged weapon and he did not.

You know what, you're right. I forgot that Rey faced Kylo in the forest and he took her prisoner with ease. Maybe that particular comparison was a bad one, but still, there's a lot of similarities between Luke in the OT and Rey in the ST in terms of their Force abilities, and I think a lot of people are overlooking that.

 

[Khev]

You know what, you're right. I forgot that Rey faced Kylo in the forest and he took her prisoner with ease. Maybe that particular comparison was a bad one, but still, there's a lot of similarities between Luke in the OT and Rey in the ST in terms of their Force abilities, and I think a lot of people are overlooking that.

Absolutely.

 

[guyver1]

No need to avoid the forums altogether.

Just simply avoid a particular thread and wait until the momentary cable outage has passed of those who still feel the need to rage six months later on toy forums about how RJ ***** their childhood, and your normally televised program (discussion about the figure) resumes.



Have to disagree with this. You either want to talk about TLJ and the ST, or you don’t.

You can’t want TLJ/ST discussion only for those who like it, and then dislike whenever anyone with a dissenting opinion from yours interjects.

Well I’m sure Dave will be chiming in soon. Jeez, another thread that might get reprimanded