1/6 Hot Toys MMS200 - Man of Steel: Superman Collectible Figure

[Remy]

One thing I recall some people not liking about Jonathan Kent in MoS, was the way he reacted towards Clark's decision to save his classmates who would have otherwise drowned.

"What was I supposed to do, just let them die?"

"Maybe."

I thought it was great script writing, as it depicted just how confused Jonathan was as well on what he felt was best for both parties. A lot of people felt this was not how a classic, traditional Jonathan Kent would have treated such a situation. Suggesting that perhaps Clark should have in fact allowed children, or anyone for that matter, to die. What I do like about the tornado scene, is that Jonathan didn't exclude himself from this. Had he wanted Clark to save him, I do think it would have been a bit selfish on his part to suggest that he perhaps let a school bus full of children perish, but when it comes to his own life, then make an exception and allow Clark to save him. I'm not sure what kind of an example that would have set for a young Clark.

I felt that Jonathan's sacrifice in this scene set the tone for what was to come in the film, and gave Clark/Kal the courage to make his own sarifices by sacrificing himself for the safety of Earth when Zod first shows up, destroying the world engine over the Indian Ocean in what was nearly a suicide mission (the most powerful scene in the movie in my opinion when it showed Superman flying up the powerful beam the world engine was emitting, while Perry took Jenny's hand), destroying the scout ship that would have enabled the re-population of his own race, and then finally, ultimately killing Zod, what he believes is to be the last of his kin.

When Superman sacrifices himself for us, he does it 100%. That's why he's Earth's greatest champion, and even though a fictional character, is still treated like a messianic figure. In this film, I think Jonathan's death helped give him the courage to be able to do that.

I love the line towards the end of the film when he and Martha are visiting Jonathan's grave, and Clark states, "I just wish he was here to see it," and Martha replies, "Oh he saw it Clark, believe me."

But here's the thing...
A lot of people dislike Jonathan's answer when asked about letting the kids die.
So, by Jonathan sacrificing himself because he thinks the time is not yet right...then basically, his answer to this question is not "MAYBE" but "YES" that Clark should have let the kids die, just like he let himself die.

So knowing his answer now, let's rewind back to that question.
Clark asks if he should let the kids die...
Now we know Jonathan's answer is "YES"...let the kids die.

See what is wrong there?
Is that really the right response? That Clark should have let the kids die in the bus?
The right thing to do isnt always the best thing to do...but it IS the right thing to do.

Going back to Jonathan's decisison to die, when heroes or samaritans risk their life, they risk it knowing that they could lose their life, but they dont choose to die.
The only time they DO choose to die, is if it was the only option in saving someone else's life.
Jonathan wasnt left with this option. He didnt have to die. The people have been saved, no one else has to die.
Clark CAN save him, but he chose to die...Because he doesnt think the time is right.

Quite frankly, its just a stupid way to die.

 

[SilverStar17]

Yes, you are correct Remy.

A lot of criticizers misinterpreted what Jonathan said in that line ("Maybe"), thinking that he said without a doubt Clark should have indeed let his classmates drown. That's not what he said. I think the line was meant to illustrate and show Jonathan's confusion also, just as much as Clark's. I mean look at what he and Martha tasked themselves with. He is aware that they are very well raising what is going to be (if not already is even at a young age) the most powerful being in the world. How do you raise him? How do you protect him from the outside world while still protecting the rest of the world at the same time? As he said, "When the world finds out what you can do it's going to change everything. Our beliefs, our notions, what it means to be human...everything."

I do indeed see the point you're making, and it makes complete sense as to why you feel that way. However, I just interpreted the scene differently. During the the school bus scene, Jonathan wasn't there to stop Clark from acting on his innate sense to want to help. Not stop him in a negative way, but as mentioned, trying to protect him from the outside world while still attempting to protect humanity. He admonished him so to speak after the event took place. Clark once again in the tornado scene demonstrated his innate sense to want to help by wanting to go out and get Jonathan, but Jonathan was obviously there this time to stop him.

I know you believe that his death was simply based on the fact that he thought "the time isn't right", and nothing more. Ultimately, that was one of, if not the main reasons, but I do believe that he was still indirectly teaching Clark a valuable lesson in this scene through his sacrifice. Whether that lesson was that Clark can't save everybody, to stand by your beliefs, or to show him just how far he was willing to go for his adopted son that he loved dearly who had just finished saying, "You're not my dad." The way he smiled at Clark, as if attempting to assure him that it's not Clark's fault or that he knew what he was doing and stayed calm, left an impression on me.



I just believe that it helped give Clark/Kal the courage to be able to make the sacrifices that he made later on in the film.

By no means am I attempting to tell you that you're wrong, or attempting to sway you to see it the way I saw it and interpreted it. I completely understand and think that your reasoning for disliking it is valid. However, I just personally felt there was more behind it than simply "the time isn't right".

 

[SilverStar17]

A very interesting and well written perspective. You brought up some very good points that I had not considered, especially about Jonathan's sacrifice and the school bus aspect. Thanks for sharing!

Thanks FAF!

 

[Remy]

Yes, you are correct Remy.

A lot of criticizers misinterpreted what Jonathan said in that line ("Maybe"), thinking that he said without a doubt Clark should have indeed let his classmates drown. That's not what he said. I think the line was meant to illustrate and show Jonathan's confusion also, just as much as Clark's. I mean look at what he and Martha tasked themselves with. He is aware that they are very well raising what is going to be (if not already is even at a young age) the most powerful being in the world. How do you raise him? How do you protect him from the outside world while still protecting the rest of the world at the same time? As he said, "When the world finds out what you can do it's going to change everything. Our beliefs, our notions, what it means to be human...everything."

I do indeed see the point you're making, and it makes complete sense as to why you feel that way. However, I just interpreted the scene differently. During the the school bus scene, Jonathan wasn't there to stop Clark from acting on his innate sense to want to help. Not stop him in a negative way, but as mentioned, trying to protect him from the outside world while still attempting to protect humanity. He admonished him so to speak after the event took place. Clark once again in the tornado scene demonstrated his innate sense to want to help by wanting to go out and get Jonathan, but Jonathan was obviously there this time to stop him.

I know you believe that his death was simply based on the fact that he thought "the time isn't right", and nothing more. Ultimately, that was one of, if not the main reasons, but I do believe that he was still indirectly teaching Clark a valuable lesson in this scene through his sacrifice. Whether that lesson was that Clark can't save everybody, to stand by your beliefs, or to show him just how far he was willing to go for his adopted son that he loved dearly who had just finished saying, "You're not my dad." The way he smiled at Clark, as if attempting to assure him that it's not Clark's fault or that he knew what he was doing and stayed calm, left an impression on me.



I just believe that it helped give Clark/Kal the courage to be able to make the sacrifices that he made later on in the film.

By no means am I attempting to tell you that you're wrong, or attempting to sway you to see it the way I saw it and interpreted it. I completely understand and think that your reasoning for disliking it is valid. However, I just personally felt there was more behind it than simply "the time isn't right".

I also do understand your point. And I'd like to think that Jonathan was basically just conflicted.
So going back to the original point of discussion on how people either love the movie a lot, or hated it.
Snyder did a lot of things that was pretty ballsy.

The Jonathan thing was just one aspect and I strongly disagree with it. So when you have people that strongly disagree with the other things, you can see
Why some people hate the movie. If I didn't agree with superman killing someone, or felt the destruction was too much, I probably would have hated it also.
But I completely fine with everything else in the movie, and Snyder is just amazing in showcasing heroic poses and action. He brings comic book visuals to life.

So this is one of those movies that I can enjoy watching over and over.

 

[Prime Clone]

Killing Zod was controversial, but:

"There is only one way to stop this, Kal. You are dead, or me."

 

[SilverStar17]

I also do understand your point. And I'd like to think that Jonathan was basically just conflicted.
So going back to the original point of discussion on how people either love the movie a lot, or hated it.
Snyder did a lot of things that was pretty ballsy.

The Jonathan thing was just one aspect and I strongly disagree with it. So when you have people that strongly disagree with the other things, you can see
Why some people hate the movie. If I didn't agree with superman killing someone, or felt the destruction was too much, I probably would have hated it also.
But I completely fine with everything else in the movie, and Snyder is just amazing in showcasing heroic poses and action. He brings comic book visuals to life.

So this is one of those movies that I can enjoy watching over and over.

I agree Remy.

Although I do think there are the people who understood the movie, but just merely didn't agree with or some of the decisions Snyder made. I can absolutely respect that. Then there are the people who didn't understand it and couldn't follow it, completely not realizing this is supposed to essentially be depicting a fledgling Superman, so therefore, they don't like it. Back to our original point as you mentioned, I think a lot of the criticisms on the film are all easily refutable. I do think there were many people who just wanted to find something "wrong" with it. As mentioned, I think a lot of people view Superman as essentially being a messianic figure. I once read that his glyph is this second most recognized symbol in the world (after the crucifix), and that you could probably walk into a South American jungle, meet a tribe, and they'd still recognize the S. I think people tend to vet Superman films a little more than what they do for other superhero films. For this, I commend Snyder for taking on the project and pulling off the things he did, because in my opinion, it worked.

I recall the second time I saw it in the theaters, after the movie concluded and everyone was filing out, I overheard a girl roughly in her mid to late 20's, make a comment regarding the final scene when Clark goes to look for employment at the Daily Planet by saying, "So..he just puts on the glasses and she (Lois) can't recognize him?? How stupid!"

Apparently, this girl didn't catch the several instances where Lois called Superman "Clark" for essentially the entire duration of the film, nor did she make the connection that Lois tracked him down to the Kent farm/residence, thus knowing his identity to be that of Clark Kent. Since she apparently missed those, I suppose she also didn't know why they were grinning at each other after Lois made the remark, "Welcome to the planet" with the obvious pun.

I had to shake my head because I thought Snyder did exactly those things to prevent comments like hers.

And yes, you're absolutely correct PC. Zod's statement couldn't have been more accurate and less than the truth. "There's only one way this ends Kal: Either you die, or I do."

 

[Chuck72586]

I'm interested to see if they ever release an extended cut for MOS. I know at one point Snyder had a cut that was about three hours, so there's definitely some stuff that was taken out and given his history with doing extended cuts for Watchmen and Suck Punch I think there's a good chance we could. Maybe when we get closer to the release of BvS. Hopefully there are some things that could add to the film. I'd be most interested to see if there are more Smallville scenes that would hopefully show a softer, more supportive side of Jonathan as I just don't think there was enough of that in the film.

 

[SilverStar17]

One thing I do wish they would have included in the film was the Kents finding baby Kal's ship, and seeing Kal for the first time.

 

[FSLAR]

But here's the thing...
A lot of people dislike Jonathan's answer when asked about letting the kids die.
So, by Jonathan sacrificing himself because he thinks the time is not yet right...then basically, his answer to this question is not "MAYBE" but "YES" that Clark should have let the kids die, just like he let himself die.

So knowing his answer now, let's rewind back to that question.
Clark asks if he should let the kids die...
Now we know Jonathan's answer is "YES"...let the kids die.

See what is wrong there?
Is that really the right response? That Clark should have let the kids die in the bus?
The right thing to do isnt always the best thing to do...but it IS the right thing to do.

Going back to Jonathan's decisison to die, when heroes or samaritans risk their life, they risk it knowing that they could lose their life, but they dont choose to die.
The only time they DO choose to die, is if it was the only option in saving someone else's life.
Jonathan wasnt left with this option. He didnt have to die. The people have been saved, no one else has to die.
Clark CAN save him, but he chose to die...Because he doesnt think the time is right.

Quite frankly, its just a stupid way to die.

this, exactly this. Perfectly summarizes the issue in my opinion. I do agree that Jonathan wasn't saying 'let the kids die', but with what Remy said, it's still not that well done and kinda stupid. Both the death and the bus. The death would traumatize Kal too, and it would make Martha's life harder potentially...maybe just nitpicking there but it's a lot of sacrifice that doesn't seem to have a purpose.

MoS was an all right movie still though, I do love the scene where Superman puts on the costume, and begins to fly around the world, and a few other scenes work.

Killing Zod was controversial, but:

"There is only one way to stop this, Kal. You are dead, or me."

The problem is that so many other villains die by the hero's hands though, or are left to die. Ra's Al Ghul in Batman Begins, Talia in Rises, maybe Dent in TDK...hell in Superman II, he just throws Zod into the abyss. Going to Marvel, Iron Man killed Iron Monger and Whiplash. I didn't find much wrong with these except Ra's Al Ghul given that simply locking up villains in a comic book movie wouldn't work, they'd have to be addressed and could still pop up. To some extent, comic book movies try to be self contained and close the chapter on a villain.

 

[Prime Clone]

Guess the rationale is, some villains are too dangerous to be left alive. If not even the Phantom Zone could contain Zod, then that limits the options.

 

[SilverStar17]

Very true. Although if I vaguely recall off of the top of my head, the ship that was used to send Zod and his cohorts into exile in the Phantom Zone just before Krypton's destruction at the beginning of the film, somehow also became part of the reason how they were able to escape it. That ship became the ship he came to Earth in and used to terraform in tandem with the world engine they salvaged while plundering old abandoned Kryptonian outposts throughout space.

The original plan with Kal, Lois and Colonel Meloni was to use Kal's ship in conjunction with Zod's ship to create a portal, and send Zod and Co. back to the Phantom Zone. Zod crash landed the scout ship with the genesis chamber that he had commandeered after Superman destroyed it, at the same time that Meloni was flying Kal's ship into Zod's ship to open the portal to the Phantom Zone. I can't recall if Zod's ship just ended up getting destroyed, or was actually sucked into the Phantom Zone. Even if Zod got sucked in as well, I'm not sure if he would have been able to escape then because one, I can't remember if his ship simply got destroyed as mentioned and two, even if it got pulled in, I think a lot of his army got freely sucked into the Phantom Zone one by one, and didn't enter it actually aboard the ship as they did in the beginning of the film to where it ultimately helped with their escape. I'm not sure if that would be able to somehow prevent them from escaping again.

Since Zod didn't get sucked in with the rest of his army and his ship now gone or destroyed, and Kal's ship now certainly gone, forever lost in the Phantom Zone, Zod was essentially stuck on Earth. I guess one could argue that Superman could have dropped him off with the Green Lantern Corps to be imprisoned, but obviously, Superman wasn't aware of their existence at this point. There was basically no other way to stop Zod's rampage other than his demise.

Being that the scout ship was destroyed, which served as Clark/Kal's makeshift "Fortress of Solitude" so to speak in the film, and his command key now lost in the Phantom Zone (presuming it was still in his ship when it got sucked in), I wonder how he's going to be able to commune with Jor-El now, and what he will use as a Fortress of Solitude?

I noticed that they also made some alterations to Supes' suit in BvS, which I hope they explain because quite frankly, where's he going to get a "new" suit at this point? He presumably has no remaining tie to Krypton on Earth besides himself, per what was shown in MoS.

 

[Chuck72586]

The changes to the suit for BvS are so minimal they won't bother explaining it. Sure, we notice the changes, but most of the audience won't.

 

[FSLAR]

It's probably gonna be enough to warrant another figure. Whether or not it'll be worth it, is another story.

 

[SilverStar17]

You're probably right Chuck.

I think FSLAR is right also, that it will probably be enough to warrant the production of another Supes figure for the film. I'm still undecided on whether or not I'll pass on it, though I'm leaning towards no because I personally like his look in MoS better.

I'd have to see the actual figure though to make a concrete decision.

 

[FSLAR]

Unless it's cheaper, and the definitive is that HT BvS is better, than it's worth keeping this one. That and having a representation from MoS is still nice, and perhaps having Batlfeck to represent BvS. Or just the DC Universe in general, there's some options here.

That said, considering we got the Begins suit from Dark Knight, it's very likely a second Cavill Superman will be made; that's my main reasoning.

 

[spindrift]

It's probably gonna be enough to warrant another figure. Whether or not it'll be worth it, is another story.

No doubt HT will do a BvS Supes- maybe also throw in a neat accessory or two- glowing red led eye HS!!!

 

[gothamcityboy]

No doubt HT will do a BvS Supes- maybe also throw in a neat accessory or two- glowing red led eye HS!!!

About the time we have superman with red eyes from HT, and yes HT will do BvS! They even will make wonder woman as well IMO

 

[FlyAndFight]

No doubt HT will do a BvS Supes- maybe also throw in a neat accessory or two- glowing red led eye HS!!!

That would be an excellent idea. I could see them using something similar to the LEDs from the DX13 to light up the eyes from behind. That would be VERY cool.

 

[irok84]

I'm almost done with my dream sequence Man of Steel paint up. Need to touch up some areas with black paint. So glad I was able to have Tony Mei make me a cape.

 

[Pro Design]

looks great! did you airbrush or do it by hand?