Hot Toys Rogue One Vader MMS388

[Wor-Gar]

It's no small thing to make those scorch marks and make them smoke on set... so the effort is clear to make the point.

Both bolts were bounced away back into the walls.

I just wish Vader was cool enough to snatch the gun and have it land in his hand with proper grip, aimed at Solo's head.

 

[canofhumdingers]

I just wish Vader was cool enough to snatch the gun and have it land in his hand with proper grip, aimed at Solo's head.

I find it more intimidating that he catches it so nonchalantly. He's quite clearly just demonstrated his complete superiority over such a "random and clumsy" weapon. Pointing it back at his enemy would seem trite at that point. But catching it the way he does just just reinforces the message that he considers it a worthless trinket.

 

[TaliBane]

It's no small thing to make those scorch marks and make them smoke on set... so the effort is clear to make the point.

Both bolts were bounced away back into the walls.

I just wish Vader was cool enough to snatch the gun and have it land in his hand with proper grip, aimed at Solo's head.

Interesting to see in HD. Han fires at least four red laser bolts at Vader. There are two glowing scorch marks seen to appear on the wall (and one on Vader's glove.)

As I said, if the filmmakers' intention was that Vader is deflecting/bouncing Han's laser blasts back in a targeted way with his hands (at Han/group or otherwise), then firstly, wouldn't we actually see RED LASER LINES coming back off his gloves and hitting the walls (and preferably to make it clear, in four places around the heroes)? Isn't that the only thing that would visually confirm this "targeted bounce back" idea?

But we don't see that - what we see is a massive shower of dozens of WHITE jagged long sparks, a couple of which go a bit further out than the rest. There is also a scorch mark that hits on the wall NOWHERE NEAR Han and the group.

If we saw even one red laser line come back off Vader's gloves, I'd agree he's bouncing - but no bounced red laser line, no idea of Vader bouncing laser bolts in a targeted way.

Therefore, the intention is clearly that it is just that he absorbs/stops the blasts, but creates massive spark explosions that scorch the walls in a couple of random places, not that he is "bouncing" them, and certainly not in a targeted way. Bouncing lasers in the OT requires a lightsaber, and even then its not used in a targeted way.

The idea of targeted bouncing of lasers doesn't exist in the OT, even with a lightsaber - it's the domain of video games, ST and RO. When Luke bounces a laser bolt into Klaatu in ROTJ and kills him, it's supposed to be just a freak luck thing during a deluge of laser blasts, because Luke never intentionally bounces back lasers in a targeted way in the whole rest of the movie. And even when he should - like when the Speeder bike is coming at him firing lasers, or when lots of blasts are coming at him on the skiff. Even in those cases, the bolts just randomly bounced away.

 

[Wor-Gar]

The idea of targeted bouncing of lasers doesn't exist in the OT, even with a lightsaber

The bolts shot at Luke while he's training bounce off his lightsaber... he's unskilled so no targeting but you could see how a skilled Jedi might be able to do that. What's that droid called again?

 

[TaliBane]

The bolts shot at Luke while he's training bounce off his lightsaber... he's unskilled so no targeting but you could see how a skilled Jedi might be able to do that. What's that droid called again?

They are actually absorbed by his saber, not bounced, and those would be ultra low power because Luke actually gets shot/zapped by one and he just goes "ouch."


What I'm responding to is retconning - when people see something in a ST, PT or RO and say it's present in the OT "from a certain point of view" - when it isn't. What Vader does in the scene in RO is cool visually, but it's truthfully more like what we've seen Vader do in a video game, not in the OT.

It also sets up very useful powers or methods that aren't seen subsequently in the OT - like R2's rockets. If they truthfully wanted Vader to have those abilities in the OT, we would have seen something similar in scenes like the Hoth base invasion or maybe on Endor - it's not like it was technologically impossible in 1980.

Bottom line is this: the OT used both force powers and lightsabers very realistically and sparingly. It's what made it cool - to me. Then the PT showed people using lightsabers to cut their food and flush the toilet, so lo and behold, when we finally see Vader again on the big screen, he needs to go full-PT Yoda onscreen. It's not enough to show him how he was in the OT - he has to slice-and-dice as a Rebel goes salad-spinner on the ceiling while holding the saber between his cheeks in order to use both force hands.

Trying to pick out tiny bits from the OT to then say those super-duper abilities or ways of operating were somehow set up or seen in the OT is the very definition of retconning.

 

[Sturtrup]

Interesting to see in HD. Han fires at least four red laser bolts at Vader. There are two glowing scorch marks seen to appear on the wall (and one on Vader's glove.)

As I said, if the filmmakers' intention was that Vader is deflecting/bouncing Han's laser blasts back in a targeted way with his hands (at Han/group or otherwise), then firstly, wouldn't we actually see RED LASER LINES coming back off his gloves and hitting the walls (and preferably to make it clear, in four places around the heroes)? Isn't that the only thing that would visually confirm this "targeted bounce back" idea?

But we don't see that - what we see is a massive shower of dozens of WHITE jagged long sparks, a couple of which go a bit further out than the rest. There is also a scorch mark that hits on the wall NOWHERE NEAR Han and the group.

If we saw even one red laser line come back off Vader's gloves, I'd agree he's bouncing - but no bounced red laser line, no idea of Vader bouncing laser bolts in a targeted way.

Therefore, the intention is clearly that it is just that he absorbs/stops the blasts, but creates massive spark explosions that scorch the walls in a couple of random places, not that he is "bouncing" them, and certainly not in a targeted way. Bouncing lasers in the OT requires a lightsaber, and even then its not used in a targeted way.

The idea of targeted bouncing of lasers doesn't exist in the OT, even with a lightsaber - it's the domain of video games, ST and RO. When Luke bounces a laser bolt into Klaatu in ROTJ and kills him, it's supposed to be just a freak luck thing during a deluge of laser blasts, because Luke never intentionally bounces back lasers in a targeted way in the whole rest of the movie. And even when he should - like when the Speeder bike is coming at him firing lasers, or when lots of blasts are coming at him on the skiff. Even in those cases, the bolts just randomly bounced away.

 

[Wor-Gar]

They are actually absorbed by his saber, not bounced, and those would be ultra low power because Luke actually gets shot/zapped by one and he just goes "ouch."

Yep, they are absorbed. I was wrong.

But I never thought Vader absorbed the bolts in ESB, even in 1980 as you suppose. I, like most people I talked to at the time, believed he deflected them -- and the marks on the walls were evidence that they were deflected away from him. I don't have to see four bolt holes because I can't see the other walls of the room.

You can say they were sparks. I never thought they were the sparks. The fact that I did not see them fly away from Vader didn't make me think he absorbed them. It made me think I didn't catch it. Maybe they get diffused on bounce-back. I have no idea. But I assumed he deflected them. Everyone says "deflected" when talking about that scene so I went with it. I suppose they could have just disintegrated on impact with Vader's force. But those sparks would have had to travel a long way to make a hole by Lando's head. And only one hole? Should it be several for all the sparks?

I'm sure that ability was what inspired Gareth (and whomever before him) to make the leap to actually deflecting bolts in a controlled manner back at the source. I don't think Vader had that power in ESB.

 

[TaliBane]

Yep, they are absorbed. I was wrong.

But I never thought Vader absorbed the bolts in ESB, even in 1980 as you suppose. I, like most people I talked to at the time, believed he deflected them -- and the marks on the walls were evidence that they were deflected away from him. I don't have to see four bolt holes because I can't see the other walls of the room.

You can say they were sparks. I never thought they were the sparks. The fact that I did not see them fly away from Vader didn't make me think he absorbed them. It made me think I didn't catch it. Maybe they get diffused on bounce-back. I have no idea. But I assumed he deflected them. Everyone says "deflected" when talking about that scene so I went with it. I suppose they could have just disintegrated on impact with Vader's force. But those sparks would have had to travel a long way to make a hole by Lando's head. And only one hole? Should it be several for all the sparks?

I'm sure that ability was what inspired Gareth (and whomever before him) to make the leap to actually deflecting bolts in a controlled manner back at the source. I don't think Vader had that power in ESB.

Bounce, deflect, absorb - whatever. The point of the ESB moment is solely that Vader cannot be killed by a shot from a laser pistol like pretty much everyone else can, NOT that he's using the blast as a redirected shot in some way. That's what I got from it in 1980 - everyone else can be killed by a laser blast, but bad*ss Vader can just put up his hand and stop it from killing him, and even tug your blaster out of your hand and into his.

The question we're discussing here is whether in the OT Vader has the ability bounce laser bolts back in some targeted way as he very clearly does in RO (two red blasts come at him, and he bounces two red blasts back to kill both rebel troopers who fired them) and the answer to that is no.

 

[Wor-Gar]

The question we're discussing here is whether in the OT Vader has the ability bounce laser bolts back in some targeted way as he very clearly does in RO (two red blasts come at him, and he bounces two red blasts back to kill both rebel troopers who fired them) and the answer to that is no.

Well if that was the question, then no. I didn't suppose that. Like I said, I can see where others like Gareth made that leap and then made it happen. If he can deflect, he must be able to control if he wants to.

 

[IndyMOS]

I mean whether he absorbed or deflected the shots away in ESB, one thing we know is he didn't purposely use that force skill as an offensive attack. Just in a defensive manner. What I personally liked in RO is that they showed that he can indeed use that move as an attack, by actually sending the bolts straight back at the bugger that tried to shoot him I mean, it's not a stretch that he could have that ability, but his skills are nearly on full display in that 1 minute fight without breaking a sweat and with ease, though I'm sure he could do more.

 

[Khev]

Luke deflected a blaster bolt with his saber back at one of Jabba's guards on top of the Sail Barge so yes, there's OT precedent for such a maneuver.

 

[Khev]

I mean whether he absorbed or deflected the shots away in ESB, one thing we know is he didn't purposely use that force skill as an offensive attack. Just in a defensive manner. What I personally liked in RO is that they showed that he can indeed use that move as an attack, by actually sending the bolts straight back at the bugger that tried to shoot him I mean, it's not a stretch that he could have that ability, but his skills are nearly on full display in that 1 minute fight without breaking a sweat and with ease, though I'm sure he could do more.

Yep, when the lasers bounced off Vader's palms on Cloud City he clearly had no motivation to actually strike anyone with them. Not much of a stretch at all to assume that he could have had he simply been so inclined.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Luke deflected a blaster bolt with his saber back at one of Jabba's guards on top of the Sail Barge so yes, there's OT precedent for such a maneuver.

OK, there it is, that must be what I'm remembering in my head. I knew Luke did that, forgot about 'Jedi'... as I often do.

 

[Khev]

Yep, they are absorbed. I was wrong.

But I never thought Vader absorbed the bolts in ESB, even in 1980 as you suppose. I, like most people I talked to at the time, believed he deflected them -- and the marks on the walls were evidence that they were deflected away from him. I don't have to see four bolt holes because I can't see the other walls of the room.

You can say they were sparks. I never thought they were the sparks. The fact that I did not see them fly away from Vader didn't make me think he absorbed them. It made me think I didn't catch it. Maybe they get diffused on bounce-back. I have no idea. But I assumed he deflected them. Everyone says "deflected" when talking about that scene so I went with it. I suppose they could have just disintegrated on impact with Vader's force. But those sparks would have had to travel a long way to make a hole by Lando's head. And only one hole? Should it be several for all the sparks?

I'm sure that ability was what inspired Gareth (and whomever before him) to make the leap to actually deflecting bolts in a controlled manner back at the source. I don't think Vader had that power in ESB.

Yeah you've been right on that from the very beginning. You see the flashes and the blaster holes FAR across the room, WAY beyond the reach of the sparks (which wouldn't have burned tiny holes into the walls anyway.) Vader clearly deflected at least two of the shots and then either absorbed or deflected the rest. That you don't see red laser beams during such a tightly edited sequence is both artistically appropriate and irrelevant. We didn't see a red laser hit Greedo in the original cantina sequence nor did we see 3PO get hit after wandering off in ESB. Sometimes the shots are simply implied in those tightly edited moments.

 

[TaliBane]

OK, there it is, that must be what I'm remembering in my head. I knew Luke did that, forgot about 'Jedi'... as I often do.

I already mentioned that.

Interesting to see in HD. Han fires at least four red laser bolts at Vader. There are two glowing scorch marks seen to appear on the wall (and one on Vader's glove.)

As I said, if the filmmakers' intention was that Vader is deflecting/bouncing Han's laser blasts back in a targeted way with his hands (at Han/group or otherwise), then firstly, wouldn't we actually see RED LASER LINES coming back off his gloves and hitting the walls (and preferably to make it clear, in four places around the heroes)? Isn't that the only thing that would visually confirm this "targeted bounce back" idea?

But we don't see that - what we see is a massive shower of dozens of WHITE jagged long sparks, a couple of which go a bit further out than the rest. There is also a scorch mark that hits on the wall NOWHERE NEAR Han and the group.

If we saw even one red laser line come back off Vader's gloves, I'd agree he's bouncing - but no bounced red laser line, no idea of Vader bouncing laser bolts in a targeted way.

Therefore, the intention is clearly that it is just that he absorbs/stops the blasts, but creates massive spark explosions that scorch the walls in a couple of random places, not that he is "bouncing" them, and certainly not in a targeted way. Bouncing lasers in the OT requires a lightsaber, and even then its not used in a targeted way.

The idea of targeted bouncing of lasers doesn't exist in the OT, even with a lightsaber - it's the domain of video games, ST and RO. When Luke bounces a laser bolt into Klaatu in ROTJ and kills him, it's supposed to be just a freak luck thing during a deluge of laser blasts, because Luke never intentionally bounces back lasers in a targeted way in the whole rest of the movie. And even when he should - like when the Speeder bike is coming at him firing lasers, or when lots of blasts are coming at him on the skiff. Even in those cases, the bolts just randomly bounced away.

 

[Khev]

Ergo Vader's better at the skill than Luke.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I think TaliBane's post is the best evidence yet for the use of deflected bolts -- I didn't even make it all the way down to his Klaatu example. So many examples of lightsaber deflecting bolts. Brilliant.

I would also say since 1983 that I assumed Luke intentionally deflected that bolt into that guy on the barge. Otherwise its just not cool. I wonder what the filmmakers say on this...?

 

[Khev]

I think TaliBane's post is the best evidence yet for the use of deflected bolts -- I didn't even make it all the way down to his Klaatu example. So many examples of lightsaber deflecting bolts. Brilliant.

Yeah I might go ahead and sticky all of TaliBane's excellent examples of OT lightsaber laser deflections as reference in case anyone ever tries to say that Vader's skills in RO don't sync up with the original movies.

 

[TaliBane]

And Luke defeated Vader.

And the laser beam that killed Greedo was shot under the table.

And 3PO's shooting in ESB was shown in profile close up.

And in looking at the HD ESB Vader scene, very long white sparks can be seen shooting at least 10 feet away from Vader, and they cause small impact "starbursts" on the room's chair and window (in addition to the more major glowing hits near the heroes and off on the side wall.) They are hot white sparks that shoot in random directions a long way from Vader - one can clearly be seen to spark as it hits the side window.

The filmmakers took the time to roto in FOUR RED BEAMS in just over a second coming from Han's blaster, but did not show ANY bounced from Vader's glove. Not a single bounced red laser beam from Vader's gloves means no bounced laser beams - targeted or otherwise.

 

[Khev]

Han's shot absolutely was not "under the table." You couldn't possibly have believed all these years that he killed Greedo by shooting him in the balls...

The table was a solid cylinder from the surface to the floor. Han kept his gun hidden below the top edge of the table as he unholstered it and then at the last second tipped the barrel above the table's edge and shot Greedo full on in the chest blowing a hole out the Rodian's back. The awful SE edit actually confirms what is implied in the theatrical cut (as far as Han's maneuver, never mind Greedo's shot obviously.)

I'm just not seeing how the films support your arguments TaliBane but if it helps bring closure to the discussion then I'm fine with allowing that movies are interpretive and that you simply see them differently than I do.