Media Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain & Ground Zeroes

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MGS just doesn't make sense. Why was Snake tricked for all of those years? Why didn't Big Boss just tell him about The Patriots and Zero from the beginning? Why didn't Liquid, Solidus or Ocelot tell him, either? Why did Eva kill herself in the fire just to trick Snake some more?

It's like that Michael Douglas movie "The Game", where everyone was in on the plan for trolling except for Douglas. Then they all had a party at the end and had a good laugh.

And it just struck me that the plot for MGS 1 was a retelling of "Twins" with Arnold and Devito :rotfl.

Solid Snake AKA Vincent Benedict :rotfl

Adding extra layers to a pile of ****, doesn't change the fact it's a pile of ****. Kojima convoluted the **** out of MGS4, just to disguise it like it was complicated.

MGS2 was complex.

MGS3 was dumbed down.

MGS4 was complexities dumbed down with plotholes :lol
 
Solid Snake AKA Vincent Benedict :rotfl

Adding extra layers to a pile of ****, doesn't change the fact it's a pile of ****. Kojima convoluted the **** out of MGS4, just to disguise it like it was complicated.

I couldn't have said it better, myself :rotfl. The storyline is just beyond absurd, and Kojima's attempt at "fixing" it has just created more oddities than needed.

It's still funny, how Nanomachines were his one answer for wrapping up loose ends. How was Big Boss was kept alive? Nanomachines. How did The Patriots keep soldiers under control? Nanomachines. How did Vamp have all of his supernatural powers? Nanomachines. How did - shhh! Nanomachines, son!

Nanomachines - the ever convenient perfume in MGS 4 to cover the stink of a poorly written plot line.

Then there's Ocelot, too, like we were discussing.
 
And don't forget Old Snake... yes I understand the prematurely aging angle. But it just made MGS4 depressing to play, and in the end Snake is the last man standing just to die from his puppet existence.
 
MGS just doesn't make sense. Why was Snake tricked for all of those years? Why didn't Big Boss just tell him about The Patriots and Zero from the beginning?

Why didn't Liquid, Solidus or Ocelot tell him, either? Why did Eva kill herself in the fire just to trick Snake some more?


In MGS1 Solid said Big Boss asked to be killed, I imagine that recton would make that game similar to MGS3.

The others.. I think they have too many problems with each other :lol and they have the same goal but with different plans for the world after the patriots


And don't forget Old Snake... yes I understand the prematurely aging angle. But it just made MGS4 depressing to play, and in the end Snake is the last man standing just to die from his puppet existence.


The sad truth..

643.gif


Accelerated aging.. I'm surprised that was hinted in MGS2.. I wonder why Kojima wanted that if MGS2 was going to be the last game
He can die peacefully, I don't know about you guys but to me that is an achievement, the others didn't have that luck.
 
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People like to just try and talk up the nonsensical story lines, regardless if it makes no sense... It's pretty clear it's badly written.

They refuse to accept that it's badly written so they have to clutch at straws to make the story fit and make it still 'good'
 
I guess this weird discussion that we're having now, just circles back to MGS V - in a sense, that I have to wonder, if the events of MGS V even play a significant role in the grand scheme of the overall plot line.

Kojima never had any foresight in this series, but it's still interesting that Peace Walker, and Kaz Miller (who was Big Boss' greatest support in creating Outer Heaven) weren't even mentioned in Eva's debriefing. Either the storylines of PW and MGS V were inconsequential, or Kojima's going off into a new canon with his latest games - starting from PW.
 
It's happened plenty of times, otherwise it wouldn't be said if it hadn't happened. You've been one of them actually Henry. Passing off the clearly nonsensical points just because it's MGS

MGS4 is badly written within the timeline of MGS, no question. Just because an individual can look past its flaws and accept it for what it is, doesn't change the fact of the matter
 
There aren't many things that are clearly nonsensical if you don't understand something about this there will be at least 10 people around the world that will understand it, I guarantee it.

I'll ask Solidus or Plissken, have I ever hinted that I'm ok or that I love with the entire story of MGS? and MGS4? or am I just trying to understand it? I know what I'm doing, trying to understand it. I never passed on something "nonsensical" ever, but maybe I come off as a MGS4 lover just because I'm saying what I think about Ocelot. And if I loved MGS4 there would be nothing wrong with that, like it or not people can have different opinions. I have friends that love it and I think its ok plus there is nothing wrong with looking past the game flaws and loving it. But no one here is doing that. You are just giving your opinion, there are no facts there
 
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I guess this weird discussion that we're having now, just circles back to MGS V - in a sense, that I have to wonder, if the events of MGS V even play a significant role in the grand scheme of the overall plot line.

Kojima never had any foresight in this series, but it's still interesting that Peace Walker, and Kaz Miller (who was Big Boss' greatest support in creating Outer Heaven) weren't even mentioned in Eva's debriefing. Either the storylines of PW and MGS V were inconsequential, or Kojima's going off into a new canon with his latest games - starting from PW.

It can't really change anything when you already got the ending.

It's happened plenty of times, otherwise it wouldn't be said if it hadn't happened. You've been one of them actually Henry. Passing off the clearly nonsensical points just because it's MGS

MGS4 is badly written within the timeline of MGS, no question. Just because an individual can look past its flaws and accept it for what it is, doesn't change the fact of the matter

Facebookbros love doing that.
 
There aren't many things that are clearly nonsensical if you don't understand something about this there will be at least 10 people around the world that will understand it, I guarantee it

I'll ask Solidus or Plissken, have I ever hinted that I'm ok with the entire story of MGS? and MGS4? or am I just trying to understand it? I know what I'm doing, trying to understand it. But maybe I come off as a MGS4 lover

Well, I've been trying to understand MGS for years, but I still can't get past the absurd plot holes and explanations, that try to come full-circle in wrapping up MGS 4 :lol.

The main problem with this series, is that Kojima has never planned out MGS in advanced. He creates these weird, self-contained plots, and tries to piece them together into the grand scheme of the MGS storyline. But, instead of being something cohesive that transitions nicely from game-to-game, it takes the form of this ugly, Frankensteinian Monster - where the games (or body parts) look out-of-place when pieced together.
 
Is there a clear explanation in MGS4 as to why he chose to do that? Been awhile since I played it. IIRC wasn't it supposed to be a distraction so Snake could take the AIs out?

He faked being Liquid because the AI recognized Liquid as an old threat they had previously neutralized through a simple method: send in Solid Snake and let him do the job. Had they known they were facing Ocelot in his "right mind" they would've taken an entirely different and much more threatening approach since they knew that Ocelot was capable of more. The thing is, before MGS4, Ocelot was actually the Patriots' main head-director of their PMC armies. By acting as if Liquid finally took over him, he can act against the AIs without taking the fall for it identity-wise. Yes it's the same target (which is why people think it's a stupid tactic), but making them think it was Liquid actually put their guard down, so much so that they thought sending Solid Snake was good enough to solve the problem.

Honestly I wish they actually mentioned the part about Ocelot initially being the main coordinator of the PMCs for the Patriots a bit more clearly, because it would've shown exactly WHY "going berserk" with the Liquid persona made sense in the way that it would've made the reveal seem less of a heroic act and more of a tactical one where Ocelot just used Liquid's identity to put the Patriots guard down. Actually that's the whole point of Ocelot taking over GW with the whole "Guns of the Patriots" gimmick, he purposely hijacked the military system of the AI to remove any possible way for the AI to throw anything against him. He was literally cutting as much ties from the Patriots all while acting as if he was an old threat they already taken down before (specifically, Liquid Snake).

Like you were saying, Kojima killed-off Liquid too early in MGS 1, and his persona was kept alive through Ocelot, to ensure that he was a recurring villain. Imagine how awesome it would have been if it were actually Liquid's ghost, and not Ocelot going crazy...

Actually this is where we differ in opinion towards Ocelot. Ocelot may have had good intentions in freeing Big Boss, but I never saw him as a hero especially when his main plan was to unleash anarchy upon the world (something I'm sure even Big Boss wouldn't have wanted). You ought to realize that Ocelot always had an anarchical goal from the start, it's why he actually didn't mind supporting Liquid in MGS1 (he even has a speech about this in MGS1), except Liquid failed so he bailed out and made it seem like he was still with the Patriots. What he was plotting in MGS4 was a seemingly full-proof plan that would ensure that the Patriots would get destroyed no matter what (be it killing the AI with a nuke or having Snake upload the virus). Either way, he was expecting to achieve anarchy, but what he didn't know was that Sunny had actually modified to virus in order to keep society's resources intact, thus preventing the "anarchy" side of Ocelot's plan from happening. He didn't know about this, so he died thinking he achieved what he wanted though, hence why he was acting all triumphantly.

Actually, the idea of pushing aside the whole arm-thing and Ocelot actually fooling the Patriots was decided on by Kojima, was most likely because he was criticized over the Liquid-arm thing in the first place (he actually got a lot of flak for it). Not to mention, I wouldn't be surprised if Ocelot proved to be a more favorite character for Kojima, especially since he once said that the creation of Liquid as a "dark clone" felt like a cheap tactic at making an enemy physically "equal" to Snake (I don't share this opinion though, I thought Liquid was great in MGS1).

Still, as convoluted as MGS4 was (though the plot wasn't its only problem), I'm happy with the end result of Snake facing off Ocelot for the final battle (again, son of Big Boss vs sone of The Boss) instead of just a retread of MGS1, which would've felt like an overblown nostalgia-fanwank (this is just my opinion). I mean, all times the player faced Ocelot you never actually beat him properly. Yes you beat him gameplay-wise, but the ending cutscene always shows his fights being drawn to a stalemate, so actually defeating him in the end actually created that perfect sense of closure for the character in my eyes.

I should mention though, as much as I love Ocelot and the whole Liquid Ocelot thing, I myself have problems with MGS4 (it's my least favorite out of the numerical titles). If anything, he was one of the only few highlights for me along with the whole premise of an "Old" Snake (Drebin, the BnBs, the game design was utterly lacking in geographical space and replayability, less interactive codec, excessive explanations that could've cut down a lot of cutscene time etc.)
 
:exactly: Totally agree with ronri

Well, I've been trying to understand MGS for years, but I still can't get past the absurd plot holes and explanations, that try to come full-circle in wrapping up MGS 4 :lol.

The main problem with this series, is that Kojima has never planned out MGS in advanced. He creates these weird, self-contained plots, and tries to piece them together into the grand scheme of the MGS storyline. But, instead of being something cohesive that transitions nicely from game-to-game, it takes the form of this ugly, Frankensteinian Monster - where the games (or body parts) look out-of-place when pieced together
.

:lecture :exactly:


That is a problem with every game that has a story :lol new games often mean little rectons here and there :dunno in the end you get used to it, but it still sucks.
 
With all this talk about PW Ima have to give it another go through before TPP. HAvent played my PW Playstation portable for a while now,still dig that color scheme. Also I bought the accessories pack below and the digi camo case fits the PS Vita like a glove. Even has a compartment for all your games.

O003QGYNBH.jpg


Peace+Walker+psp+big+boss+pack.jpg

That looks pretty great, I had only the regular PSP case, I might pick something like this up off ebay when I get a Vita.

Meh, the Liquid arm-thing was so ridiculous (not in terms of plausibility, but just the idea in of itself) that I'm actually glad they went for a more practical route in the end for MGS4. Yeah sure, the whole arm-thing was convoluted as hell, but I'm glad it still falls very well in line with the trolling aspect of his character that I ended up being fairly happy about it.

Same here, I thought Kojima was going too far with that.

I got an S rank without doing that, and when I did it I got spotted and got an S anyway :dunno



So you didn't get spotted? did you tranq other soldiers?

Look at this, this guy used a strategy similar to mine


Yea, I never got caught, I’m going to copy the video right now :lol
 
He faked being Liquid because the AI recognized Liquid as an old threat they had previously neutralized through a simple method: send in Solid Snake and let him do the job. Had they known they were facing Ocelot in his "right mind" they would've taken an entirely different and much more threatening approach since they knew that Ocelot was capable of more. The thing is, before MGS4, Ocelot was actually the Patriots' main head-director of their PMC armies. By acting as if Liquid finally took over him, he can act against the AIs without taking the fall for it identity-wise (yes it's the same target, but making them think it was Liquid actually put their guard down, so much so that they thought sending Solid Snake was good enough to solve the problem).

Honestly I wish they actually mentioned that part of the story more clearly, because it would've shown exactly WHY taking on the Liquid persona made sense in the way that it would've made the reveal seem less of a heroic act and more of a tactical one. Actually that's the whole point of Ocelot taking over GW with the whole "Guns of the Patriots" gimmick, he purposely hijacked the military system of the AI to remove any possible way for the AI to send in anything against him (except Snake which had the virus anyway). He was literally cutting as much ties from the Patriots all while acting as if he was an old threat they already taken down before.



Actually this is where we differ in opinion towards Ocelot. Ocelot may have had good intentions in freeing Big Boss, but I never saw him as a hero especially when his main plan was to unleash anarchy upon the world (something I'm sure even Big Boss wouldn't have wanted). You ought to realize that Ocelot always had an anarchical goal from the start, it's why he actually didn't mind supporting Liquid in MGS1 (he even has a speech about this in MGS1), except Liquid failed so he bailed out and made it seem like he was still with the Patriots. What he was plotting in MGS4 was a seemingly full-proof plan that would ensure that the Patriots would get destroyed no matter what (be it killing the AI with a nuke or having Snake upload the virus). Either way, he was expecting to achieve anarchy, but what he didn't know was that Sunny had actually modified to virus in order to keep society's resources intact, thus preventing the "anarchy" side of Ocelot's plan from happening. He didn't know about this, so he died thinking he achieved what he wanted though, hence why he was acting all triumphantly. In the end it's the "next generation" the saved the world I guess and not really Ocelot (he just had a HUGE helping hand in it even if he plotted something much worse). :p

Actually, the idea of pushing aside the whole arm-thing and Ocelot actually fooling the Patriots was decided on by Kojima, was most likely because he was criticized over the Liquid-arm thing in the first place (I recall he got a lot of flak for it). Not to mention, I wouldn't be surprised if Ocelot proved to be a more favorite character for Kojima, especially since he once said that the creation of Liquid as a "dark clone" felt like a cheap tactic at making an enemy "equal" to Snake (I don't share this opinion though, I thought Liquid was great in MGS1). Still, as convoluted as MGS4 was (though the plot wasn't its only problem), I'm happy with the end result of Snake facing off Ocelot for the final battle (again, son of Big Boss vs sone of The Boss) instead of just a retread of MGS1, which would've felt like an overblown nostalgia-fanwank (this is just my opinion). I mean, all times the player faced Ocelot you never actually beat him properly. Yes you beat him gameplay-wise, but the ending cutscene always shows the fights being drawn to a stalemate, so actually defeating him in the end actually created that perfect sense of closure for the character in my eyes.

That makes it make sense, but why go to the trouble? At the beginning of the game they can control all the military technology, so wouldn't it be easier just to have a Gekkou step on him? :huh

This line from MGS2 completely goes against what MGS4 is.

"of what interest would a single soldier, no matter how able, be to us?"

Snake was their ultimate weapon.
 
He faked being Liquid because the AI recognized Liquid as an old threat they had previously neutralized through a simple method: send in Solid Snake and let him do the job. Had they known they were facing Ocelot in his "right mind" they would've taken an entirely different and much more threatening approach since they knew that Ocelot was capable of more. The thing is, before MGS4, Ocelot was actually the Patriots' main head-director of their PMC armies. By acting as if Liquid finally took over him, he can act against the AIs without taking the fall for it identity-wise. Yes it's the same target (which is why people think it's a stupid tactic), but making them think it was Liquid actually put their guard down, so much so that they thought sending Solid Snake was good enough to solve the problem.

Honestly I wish they actually mentioned the part about Ocelot initially being the main coordinator of the PMCs for the Patriots a bit more clearly, because it would've shown exactly WHY "going berserk" with the Liquid persona made sense in the way that it would've made the reveal seem less of a heroic act and more of a tactical one where Ocelot just used Liquid's identity to put the Patriots guard down. Actually that's the whole point of Ocelot taking over GW with the whole "Guns of the Patriots" gimmick, he purposely hijacked the military system of the AI to remove any possible way for the AI to throw anything against him. He was literally cutting as much ties from the Patriots all while acting as if he was an old threat they already taken down before (specifically, Liquid Snake).



Actually this is where we differ in opinion towards Ocelot. Ocelot may have had good intentions in freeing Big Boss, but I never saw him as a hero especially when his main plan was to unleash anarchy upon the world (something I'm sure even Big Boss wouldn't have wanted). You ought to realize that Ocelot always had an anarchical goal from the start, it's why he actually didn't mind supporting Liquid in MGS1 (he even has a speech about this in MGS1), except Liquid failed so he bailed out and made it seem like he was still with the Patriots. What he was plotting in MGS4 was a seemingly full-proof plan that would ensure that the Patriots would get destroyed no matter what (be it killing the AI with a nuke or having Snake upload the virus). Either way, he was expecting to achieve anarchy, but what he didn't know was that Sunny had actually modified to virus in order to keep society's resources intact, thus preventing the "anarchy" side of Ocelot's plan from happening. He didn't know about this, so he died thinking he achieved what he wanted though, hence why he was acting all triumphantly.

Actually, the idea of pushing aside the whole arm-thing and Ocelot actually fooling the Patriots was decided on by Kojima, was most likely because he was criticized over the Liquid-arm thing in the first place (he actually got a lot of flak for it). Not to mention, I wouldn't be surprised if Ocelot proved to be a more favorite character for Kojima, especially since he once said that the creation of Liquid as a "dark clone" felt like a cheap tactic at making an enemy physically "equal" to Snake (I don't share this opinion though, I thought Liquid was great in MGS1).

Still, as convoluted as MGS4 was (though the plot wasn't its only problem), I'm happy with the end result of Snake facing off Ocelot for the final battle (again, son of Big Boss vs sone of The Boss) instead of just a retread of MGS1, which would've felt like an overblown nostalgia-fanwank (this is just my opinion). I mean, all times the player faced Ocelot you never actually beat him properly. Yes you beat him gameplay-wise, but the ending cutscene always shows his fights being drawn to a stalemate, so actually defeating him in the end actually created that perfect sense of closure for the character in my eyes.

I should mention though, as much as I love Ocelot and the whole Liquid Ocelot thing, I myself have problems with MGS4 (it's my least favorite out of the numerical titles). If anything, he was one of the only few highlights for me along with the whole premise of an "Old" Snake (Drebin, the BnBs, the game design was utterly lacking in geographical space and replayability, less interactive codec, excessive explanations that could've cut down a lot of cutscene time etc.)

It also would have taken all the meaning off one of the best Boss battles ever made, beating Liquids persona out of Ocelot, while the themes and names change were pretty awesome.
 
It also would have taken all the meaning off one of the best Boss battles ever made, beating Liquids persona out of Ocelot, while the themes and names change were pretty awesome.

It seems they wanted it to be the ultimate boss fight of the MGS saga. The MGS3 one was my favourite, Naked Snake vs Ocelot
 
It seems they wanted it to bew the ultimate boss fight of the MGS saga, the MGS3 one was my favourite, Naked Snake vs Ocelot

The fight closed out the whole series in a perfect way, it had a lot of meaning, and its easily in my top 3 boss fights ever put into video game. MGS4 did have some problems, not many, but the whole Ocelot thing was genius in my opinion. MGS2 can be looked at as messy as well if you don’t take time to understand everything going on.
 
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