Media Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain & Ground Zeroes

[Frank Jaeger]

Again, down to an individuals personal preference.

The story doesn't add up is my point, regardless of a said persons feelings for the game, whether they like it or don't like it, whether or not they can accept the flaws or not does not take away from the fact that it was written poorly within the MGS timeline. (MGS4 I'm strictly talking here)

If you have to dig deep to make the story fit then it's not been wrote very well, and yes there has been times that people have said something negative regarding the story and you've said that that you like it regardless, whether you know it make sense or not. Your not the only one granted

There aren't many things that are clearly nonsensical if you don't understand something about this there will be at least 10 people around the world that will understand it, I guarantee it

I'll ask Solidus or Plissken, have I ever hinted that I'm ok with the entire story of MGS? and MGS4? or am I just trying to understand it? I know what I'm doing, trying to understand it. I never passed on something "nonsensical" ever, but maybe I come off as a MGS4 lover just because I'm saying what I think about Ocelot. And if I loved MGS4 there would be nothing wrong with that, like it or not people can have different opinions. I have friends that love it and I think its ok

 

[pturtle]

The same could be said for MGS2, which a lot of fans hate, all personal preference if you ask me.

 

[Solidus]

@ronri:
That's where I completely disagree . Ocelot's main goal wasn't anarchy. There was always a means to an end behind his actions. He wanted to save Big Boss, and in order to do so, he needed recover Big Boss's body and free his consciousness which was being subdued by The Patriot's AI system, and Liquid's insurrection in Shadow Moses provided the perfect opportunity for him. Liquid needed Big Boss's body to cure his ailing genome soldiers and Ocelot wanted to save Big Boss, so it was a mutually beneficial relationship in that regard.

That's not to say that Ocelot is a hero, by any regard. But, the end results of his actions and trickery did free the free the world from The Patriots in the end - while he used Solid Snake as a puppet on a string to do all of the hard work for him.

But, it still doesn't make sense why he didn't just tell Snake about his plans from the beginning.

 

[Snake Plissken]

Again, down to an individuals personal preference.

The story doesn't add up is my point, regardless of a said persons feelings for the game, whether they like it or don't like it, whether or not they can accept the flaws or not does not take away from the fact that it was written poorly within the MGS timeline. (MGS4 I'm strictly talking here)

If you have to dig deep to make the story fit then it's not been wrote very well, and yes there has been times that people have said something negative regarding the story and you've said that that you like it regardless, whether you know it make sense or not. Your not the only one granted

If MGS4 had better explanations instead of easy cop-outs with nanomachines, and the plot lines were actually explained in microscopic detail... I wouldn't dislike it so much.

MGS4 is good for what it is, but it's such an incoherent mess.

 

[ronri]

That makes it make sense, but why go to the trouble? At the beginning of the game they can control all the military technology, so wouldn't it be easier just to have a Gekkou step on him?

This line from MGS2 completely goes against what MGS4 is.

"of what interest would a single soldier, no matter how able, be to us?"

Snake was their ultimate weapon.

That's the main thing though, Ocelot was the one who was in control of the military technology (again, something the game failed to mention very clearly if at all aside from supplementary materials), and it's not like the Patriots had a direct link over each individual tech (they operated on an agent-based system and their main control was people's nanomachines). All the Patriots had left was their observational power through the nanomachines in the soldiers which allowed them to survey the situation, and it's not like they could just take over a soldier at will. Basically Ocelot was meant to run the war economy and the entire nanomachine system for them (remember they think Ocelot is still on their side), but going berserk as "Liquid" made them realize he was expendable, except instead of taking bigger precautions they just sent in Solid Snake without even giving much of a damn about it.

I wouldn't say it's so much that Snake was their ultimate weapon, rather they thought they were just fighting Liquid again instead of Ocelot himself and couldn't be f'ed to actually take bigger precautions about it.

Again these are things that were communicated very poorly in the story. It's why I wish they got rid some of the random cutscenes (like Drebin's friggin monkey) and actually mentioned these facts more clearly and why I hated the narrative of MGS4 despite liking very much on a conceptual level. But yeah, Ocelot is no hero. Yes he did good, but the fact that he wanted anarchy and was willing enough to kill Snake in their final battle shows how much of an ******* he still is even if he's on Big Boss's side (and even that was becoming pretty loose when you think of how much his plans veered off from Big Boss's ideals).

 

[Henry Morgan*]

Again, down to an individuals personal preference.

The story doesn't add up is my point, regardless of a said persons feelings for the game, whether they like it or don't like it, whether or not they can accept the flaws or not does not take away from the fact that it was written poorly within the MGS timeline. (MGS4 I'm strictly talking here)

If you have to dig deep to make the story fit then it's not been wrote very well, and yes there has been times that people have said something negative regarding the story and you've said that that you like it regardless, whether you know it make sense or not. Your not the only one granted

And a lot of people think its the ultimate MGS because it ties up all the mess of MGS2 like it or not, all of that is just opinion. Even if I agree with most of that I don't agree that its fact, the truth is subjective even if we talk about science... the most objective thing has subjectivity in it.

You don't have to dig in deep to understand it, this is not MGS2. Its like studying history a lot of things happened and you may forget a few things but its not impossible to understand. MGS4 its actually very simple compared to MGS2 but you have to guess somethings to understand the plot

The same could be said for MGS2, which a lot of fans hate, all personal preference if you ask me.

Much worse can be said about MGS2 but I appreciate the story of that game anyway, its intresting for me since its related to what I'm studying

@ronri:
But, it still doesn't make sense why he didn't just tell Snake about his plans from the beginning.

Who? Liquid or Ocelot?

Liquid hated Snake, and why Ocelot didn't... well I dunno, you could think of a variety of reasons.. but I don't think there is a way to know for sure, I'm kinda tired of thinking about this I don't think I remember EVERY DETAIL of the games anyway

 

[Dark_Spidey]

If MGS4 had better explanations instead of easy cop-outs with nanomachines, and the plot lines were actually explained in microscopic detail... I wouldn't dislike it so much.

MGS4 is good for what it is, but it's such an incoherent mess.

That's why MGS1 is the best imo. Pretty basic plot but works amazingly well.

Kojima should remember that sometimes less is more

 

[Frank Jaeger]

While MGS2 is in the top 3, i will agree that the story was a bit weak to follow on from MGS1, despite Kojima visions of grandeur.

As an idea it was out of the box, didn't really work being brought to the videogame, or should i say it didn't do what Kojima hoped it would.

The same could be said for MGS2, which a lot of fans hate, all personal preference if you ask me.

 

[Frank Jaeger]

Nobody is saying you have to dig deep to uncover what they are trying to say. It was pretty obvious and Kojima practically spoon fed it to us.

I'm saying trying to fix the problems people had with MGS2 and other titles was not solved by added mental **** that doesn't even add up. 2 wrongs don't make a right, considering the supposed 'fix' goes and messes up other parts of the timeline.

There are better ways even i can think up to make it more coherent. Kojima could have too he just wanted quick fixes, even if it it messed up stuff further

And a lot of people think its the ultimate MGS because it ties up all the mess of MGS2 like it or not, all of that is just opinion. Even if I agree with most of that I don't agree that its fact, the truth is subjective even if we talk about science... the most objective thing has subjectivity in it.

You don't have to dig in deep to understand it, this is not MGS2. Its like studying history a lot of things happened and you may forget a few things but its not impossible to understand. MGS4 its actually very simple compared to MGS2 but you have to guess somethings to understand the plot



Much worse can be said about MGS2 but I appreciate the story of that game anyway, its intresting for me since its related to what I'm studying

 

[pturtle]

And a lot of people think its the ultimate MGS because it ties up all the mess of MGS2 like it or not, all of that is just opinion. Even if I agree with most of that I don't agree that its fact, the truth is subjective even if we talk about science... the most objective thing has subjectivity in it.

You don't have to dig in deep to understand it, this is not MGS2. Its like studying history a lot of things happened and you may forget a few things but its not impossible to understand. MGS4 its actually very simple compared to MGS2 but you have to guess somethings to understand the plot



Much worse can be said about MGS2 but I appreciate the story of that game anyway, its intresting for me since its related to what I'm studying

I like MGS2 a lot as well, but it’s probably the most hated in the series by most. A lot of things were poorly executed even though the story had great writing.

 

[pturtle]

While MGS2 is in the top 3, i will agree that the story was a bit weak to follow on from MGS1, despite Kojima visions of grandeur.

As an idea it was out of the box, didn't really work being brought to the videogame, or should i say it didn't do what Kojima hoped it would.

Yea, the writing was great, but a lot of things weren’t executed that well, and some really incredibly strange characters were created, but the intention, meaning and risk taken, makes it one of the greatest game ever in my opinion.

 

[Henry Morgan*]

I like MGS2 a lot as well, but it’s probably the most hated in the series by most. A lot of things were poorly executed even though the story had great writing.

Because its too serious to be a video game, it works better as a post-moder piece of art than a video game, its designed to challenge the players perceptions of truth its awesome, how much of what we know is truth? everything we know and everything we think about is a direct result of the world's memes. Its a great topic, there are quite a few intresting essays about it online

 

[Frank Jaeger]

MGS2 is the sole perpetrator for ever even having the playable story of Big Boss

If it wasn't for peoples upset regarding MGS2 we would probably only ever had MGS3 and it would have been much later down the line

 

[ronri]

@ronri:
That's where I completely disagree . Ocelot's main goal wasn't anarchy. There was always a means to an end behind his actions. He wanted to save Big Boss, and in order to do so, he needed recover Big Boss's body and free his consciousness which was being subdued by The Patriot's AI system, and Liquid's insurrection in Shadow Moses provided the perfect opportunity for him. Liquid needed Big Boss's body to cure his ailing genome soldiers and Ocelot wanted to save Big Boss, so it was a mutually beneficial relationship in that regard.

That's not to say that Ocelot is a hero, by any regard. But, the end results of his actions and trickery did free the free the world from The Patriots in the end - while he used Solid Snake as a puppet on a string to do all of the hard work for him.

But, it still doesn't make sense why he didn't just tell Snake about his plans from the beginning.

You're forgetting something though. It was a two-part plan for Ocelot: free Big Boss, achieve Outer Heaven.

Yes, everyone wanted Big Boss free, but Ocelot on his own actually wanted to create his own version of Outer Heaven (he did idolize Big Boss after all, and it's been mentioned by Kojima that Ocelot actually really liked Liquid as a clone of Big Boss hence why he joined Foxhound, making the whole "Liquid Ocelot" gig even more plausible). The problem is, his version of Outer Heaven was literally about achieving anarchy. His mentality about the Patriots' rule always had zero-sum methodology. Either you are subjugated by the Patriots control, or you live completely free from any form of system. The problem is, he actually greatly believed in the latter, something he's been very clear about throughout the entire series:

"America will descend into chaos. It'll be the Wild West all over again. No law, no order. Fire will spread across the world. The people will fight... And through battle they will know the fullness of life. At last... Our father's will... His Outer Heaven... Is complete." -Liquid Ocelot to Solid Snake in MGS4

And that's already AFTER you beat the Liquid out of him. Even in MGS1 he was pretty clear about his beliefs regarding the systemic control vs. chaos/disorder:

"We need tension...conflict. The world today has become too soft. We're living in an age where true feelings are suppressed. So we're going to shake things up a bit. We'll create a world dripping with tension... ...a world filled with greed and suspicion, bravery and cowardice." - Revolver Ocelot to Solid Snake in MGS1

Even with all the convoluted shiz that has happened in the entire MGS series, these two quotes are one of the few consistent writing for Ocelot's character. In the end, while Ocelot contributed in freeing society from the Patriots, its was Sunny who still saved it from collapsing instead of becoming the Outer Heaven that Ocelot hoped for. Even if Ocelot sided and wanted to free Big Boss, I highly doubt that Big Boss would've wanted for Ocelot to actually achieve this very same Outer Heaven considering how even he disapproves of his old mindset by the end of MGS4.

 

[Henry Morgan*]

You're forgetting something though. It was a two-part plan: free Big Boss, achieve Outer Heaven.

The problem is, his version of Outer Heaven was literally about achieving anarchy. His mentality about the Patriots rule always had zero-sum methodology. Either you are subjugated by the Patriots control, or you live completely free from any form of system. The problem is, he actually greatly believed in the latter, something he's been very clear about throughout the entire series:

"America will descend into chaos. It'll be the Wild West all over again. No law, no order. Fire will spread across the world. The people will fight... And through battle they will know the fullness of life. At last... Our father's will... His Outer Heaven... Is complete." -Liquid Ocelot to Solid Snake in MGS4

And that's already AFTER you beat the Liquid out of him. Even in MGS1 he was pretty clear about his beliefs regarding the systemic control vs. chaos/disorder:
"We need tension...conflict. The world today has become too soft. We're living in an age where true feelings are suppressed. So we're going to shake things up a bit. We'll create a world dripping with tension... ...a world filled with greed and suspicion, bravery and cowardice." - Revolver Ocelot to Solid Snake in MGS1

Even with all the convoluted shiz that has happened in the entire MGS, these two quotes are one of the few consistent writing for Ocelot's character. In the end, while Ocelot contributed in freeing society from the Patriots, its was Sunny who still saved it from collapsing instead of becoming the Outer Heaven that Ocelot hoped for. Even if Ocelot sided and wanted to free Big Boss, I highly doubt that Big Boss would've wanted for Ocelot to actually to achieve this very same Outer Heaven considering how even he disapproves of it by the end of MGS4.

Its a huge story of misinterpretation... maybe Ocelot didn't fully understand Big Boss's plan, the attempt to understand someone's intetions is a big part of MGS4, just like MGS2 that game was involved with things beyond the game's story and context

 

[Snake Plissken]

That's why MGS1 is the best imo. Pretty basic plot but works amazingly well.

Kojima should remember that sometimes less is more

It was easy to soak in, and it probably wrote itself.

 

[Henry Morgan*]

The oveall pacing and many set piece moments of MGS1 were recycled from the last game, but I don't see that as a problem. MGS is one of the best games ever, easily better than most psx games Just thinking about me makes me want a proper 1/6 Solid Snake

 

[Solidus]

@ronri:
I'm really not convinced about the "achieving anarchy" part as one of his main goals; because it follows that if Ocelot were to free Big Boss by taking the AI systems offline, then the economies of the world would destabilize as a result (and hence, it would become the "Wild West"). I think Ocelot's end quote was more of a realization, and grandiose speech that The Patriots had finally been defeated and the world was now free from their grasp.

That's not to say that Big Boss may not have liked the idea of ruling over another Outer Heaven. But, Outer Heaven itself, was a just a means to an end to defeating The Patriots, and since Ocelot succeeded in his mission, I guess Big Boss just decided to call it quits in his life and everything else.

 

[Frank Jaeger]

The problem Kojima has now is that he's planted so many retcons in the series that no matter how good he may write a story, it's going to plagued with effort of having to try and fit it in with everything previous/in the future. Which they obviously don't take too much time figuring out because it's already so littered with them.

MGS1/2/3 are all free from this and they could all be stand alone titles in terms of story, they couldn't really do anything wrong to the overall story because of how they were wrote, even MGS2 to an extent. Where as all the games that came afterwards built of ideas and points from one of those 3 games, and that's when things got weird

 

[Snake Plissken]

The oveall pacing and many set piece moments of MGS1 were recycled from the last game, but I don't see that as a problem. MGS is one of the best games ever, easily better than most psx games Just thinking about me makes me want a proper 1/6 Solid Snake

I don't mind recycling through the story, but Kojima keeps borrowing too much from the Snake era and stuffing it in the prequels.