Media Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain & Ground Zeroes

[Solidus]

Having all the subsequent Big Boss games all based around the Boss's death is getting pretty stale. And from all the reviews I've heard, the amount of violence and sexual themes comes across completely as shock factor, as you said.

Just like "the bomb" that we were talking about yesterday .

I actually have a feeling that Big Boss's revenge in MGSV may have less to do with Cipher and more on Skull Face with XOF as a third party. In this regard, it feels as if his revenge against Skull Face will drive him on the edge, enough for Zero to find fault in his actions and actually take part in the ensuing conflict.

Yeah, maybe Skull Face will help to wrap this entire thing up nicely (at least, I'm hoping). It's obvious that Zero somehow managed to turn the world against Big Boss through misinformation, and it eventually lead to Big Boss's downfall in MG 1 and 2. It leads me to wonder, if perhaps, Skull Face is being used inadvertently by Zero without even realizing it.

 

[ronri]

Yeah, originally I thought that Skull Face was somehow a leading front for Zero (a commander character that serves Cipher), but the fact that Kojima is going through lengths to show that he's some new guy who goes "way back" with Zero and Big Boss while having a beef against them, it leads me to think he'll serve as the cause for Big Boss's revenge as a completely separate party from Cipher/Zero (though as you said, it's possible that he's unwittingly serving as a pawn for Zero to wage war against Big Boss without even realizing it).

 

[Frank Jaeger]

Based on how most other lines have tied into the series, i would imagine that it's the latter

 

[WellCQCaboutthat]

I thought resident evil, just as biohazard was talking about the virus that lives inside you. The virus resides in your body. That to me makes more sense.

 

[Solidus]

Yeah, originally I thought that Skull Face was somehow a leading front for Zero (a commander character that serves Cipher), but the fact that Kojima is going through lengths to show that he's some new guy who goes "way back" with Zero and Big Boss while having a beef against them, it leads me to think he'll serve as the cause for Big Boss's revenge as a completely separate party from Cipher/Zero (though as you said, it's possible that he's unwittingly serving as a pawn for Zero to wage war against Big Boss without even realizing it).

You've brought up a good point that I've actually been pondering myself, for some time . It's strange how "Zero" is also being referred to as "Cipher". I still wonder if they're actually one in the same, or perhaps two different things (or persons) with the same meaning behind their names. Confusing, but it makes me think...

 

[Snake Plissken]

I still think having the happy go lucky support crew from MGS3 was a bad choice for the original Patriots.

 

[ronri]

Based on how most other lines have tied into the series, i would imagine that it's the latter

Could also be both. Skull Face thinks he's waging war against both Big Boss and Zero of his own accord, only to find out (or not) that he's just a pawn in Zero's plot. It's another classic story-telling trope that's used a lot in MGS though I'll admit I'm unsure how I feel about Skull Face's role being reduced into just another pawn (not that it's necessarily bad, since it's practically a norm in MGS by now).

You've brought up a good point that I've actually been pondering myself, for some time . It's strange how "Zero" is also being referred to as "Cipher". I still wonder if they're actually one in the same, or perhaps two different things (or persons) with the same meaning behind their names. Confusing, but it makes me think...

Yeah that's something I always wondered so I ended up looking it up to confirm it myself. If I recall correctly, Cipher is essentially an alias for The Patriots as a whole. The only reason it's often associated with a "person" (i.e. Zero), is because by default, The Patriots are essentially led by Zero himself.

 

[Solidus]

I still think having the happy go lucky support crew from MGS3 was a bad choice for the original Patriots.

That's what pissed me off the most about the "revelations" from MGS 4. Plus, how does Major Zero go from a small-time SAS commander to full scale ruler of the world?

If I recall correctly, Cipher is essentially an alias for The Patriots as a whole. The only reason it's often associated with a "person", is because by default, The Patriots are essentially led by Zero himself.

Ah, I see. Interesting how such an alias might be the predecessor to the "la-li-lu-le-lo" nanomachine suppression on the word "Patriots".

 

[Snake Plissken]

That's what pissed me off the most about the "revelations" from MGS 4. Plus, how does Major Zero go from a small-time SAS commander to full scale ruler of the world?

That was a easy way to make the story come full circle I guess. It was so out of character for them to become what they were. I can see Sigint being the DARPA chief and all, but Para-Medic becoming a scientist that experiments on humans?

And making Zero the true villain of the series was the ultimate meh revelation in MGS4

 

[ronri]

That was a easy way to make the story come full circle I guess. It was so out of character for them to become what they were. I can see Sigint being the DARPA chief and all, but Para-Medic becoming a scientist that experiments on humans?

And making Zero the true villain of the series was the ultimate meh revelation in MGS4

To be fair, I actually recall a creepy Codec conversation with Para-Medic where she specifically talks about how she'd be interested in the idea of cloning and possibly even trying it out with Big Boss as a subject (to which Big Boss obviously showed a bit of disgust, talking about how the traits of being an effective soldier is earned, not something you can just copy-paste). So it may be random, but it was definitely foreshadowed that she was more than willing to do questionable experiments.

 

[Snake Plissken]

To be fair, I actually recall a creepy Codec conversation with Para-Medic where she specifically talks about how she'd be interested in the idea of cloning and possibly even trying it out with Big Boss as a subject (to which Big Boss obviously showed a bit of disgust, talking about how battle experience is earned not something you can just copy-paste). So it may be random, but it was definitely foreshadowed that she was more than willing to do questionable experiments.

Kojima doesn't think that far ahead. Cloning and human experimentation like with Gray Fox are two completely different extremes.

 

[Solidus]

That was a easy way to make the story come full circle I guess. It was so out of character for them to become what they were. I can see Sigint being the DARPA chief and all, but Para-Medic becoming a scientist that experiments on humans?

And making Zero the true villain of the series was the ultimate meh revelation in MGS4

It would have been easier to digest if Zero and his crew fought along-side Big Boss, in some battles against the government and if they helped him to create Outer Heaven. But, I guess Kojima's gonna Kojima .

 

[ronri]

Kojima doesn't think that far ahead. Cloning and human experimentation like with Gray Fox are two completely different extremes.

Mind you, I was mainly referring to the Les Enfants Terribles since you mentioned human experiments, so I wasn't exactly equating that to the experiments being made on Gray Fox.

 

[Solidus]

If I can recall correctly, didn't Kojima give the same spiel about MGS 3 being his "last game" in the series? So, he couldn't have possibly known (or even conceived) that Paramedic would be Dr. Clark. He doesn't think far ahead beyond the game that he's currently releasing for a time. It's this lack of foresight, that's the cause why the canon is such an incoherent mess.

 

[FSLAR]

I swear, we are never going to know about Zero. If we really don't, I'm going to hate Kojima forever. That got me hype in MGS4. ****ing cop out

Plissken is right though, Para-medic experimenting on humans simply doesn't fit her character. Sigint works, easily but everything else, I don't understand.

 

[pturtle]

He doesn't think far ahead, but does leave room to work with things if he comes back. MGS was supposed to be the last Metal Gear game and that ended with the player finding out that there was another clone, who manipulated the events of Shadow Moses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[pturtle]

I swear, we are never going to know about Zero. If we really don't, I'm going to hate Kojima forever. That got me hype in MGS4. ****ing cop out

Plissken is right though, Para-medic experimenting on humans simply doesn't fit her character. Sigint works, easily but everything else, I don't understand.

I think it fits within the theme of the game, that the "real" enemy, is the "times". Your allies one day, can be your worst enemy the next. All of the patriots changed drastically in one way or another.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ronri]

If I can recall correctly, didn't Kojima give the same spiel about MGS 3 being his "last game" in the series? He doesn't think far ahead beyond the game that he's currently releasing for a time. It's this lack of foresight, that's the cause why the canon is such an incoherent mess.

Honestly reading a lot of interviews, I think the main reason he keeps saying that is because he keeps getting tired of being essentially forced into making new stories for Solid Snake. Realize that after MGS2, people wanted more of Snake with Raiden taking over in the Plant chapter (nothing against Raiden at all, I like the character after all). He said that MGS3 was actually a huge sigh of relief for the team since they were already familiar with the PS2's engine, and it was something that the crew really had fun with when making it. I can't imagine finishing a game like that only for people to want the next thing afterwards because they wanted more Solid Snake.

It's also why his interest towards Snake probably slowly waded over time, favoring Big Boss in many other titles directly after MGS4. Not that I'm dissing Snake though, I LOVE the guy, but while Kojima's choice of words were poor, I interpreted it more as him finding more leeway in characterizing Big Boss' tragic/tortured aspects as a fallen character compared to the more stoic and awesome deadpan snarker that was Snake. I guess it's why he even inverted that in MGS4, it sort of glorifies the "old" action hero days while deconstructing it by actually showing how badly it's taking a toll on Snake as a whole (as much as people hated it, I really loved the whole idea of "Old Snake" and it really allowed me to sympathize with the character even with the mess that MGS4 was).

Well to add more fun to the Para-Medic/Gray Fox talks, here's a little something I found hilariously ironic in light of her fate:

"Snake, did I ever tell you the reason I got into science in the first place?

[No, I don't think you've mentioned it before.]

Well, when I was a kid, back before I could go and see any film I wanted, my mother would read books to me and my sister to pass the time. Eventually, she read us one book about a scientist trying to create, and control life.

For a while, it was my favourite book. I remember reading it over and over again, and even thinking about what I would do if I were in the scientists' place. It must sound silly to you, but it kept me interested in the sciences while my sister and my friends grew into the normal interests teenaged girls had.

When I heard that they were finally releasing a movie based on the book, I could hardly contain myself! My parents didn't want me to see Frankenstein, because they said it would scare me, but I snuck out the night it was released and saw it three times in a row. My parents were so worried because I was gone for so long, that when I came home they weren't even upset that I had left in the first place.

Snake, Frankenstein dedicated his life to try and better humanity, and he paid for it by being destroyed by his creation. It's an amazing thought that shows not to obsess over something too much, or it will ruin you. Remember to keep a level head in the battlefield.

Imagine..being destroyed by your own creation. Good thing it was just a movie, huh?"

You gotta love the irony, especially in retrospect.

 

[Solidus]

That's a pretty interesting find . I doubt that it was intentional, because she really seemed obsessed about Godzilla, too. From the way that Paramedic would babble on about movies, you'd think that she was an extension of Kojima's persona in the game.

Anyway, maybe the purpose of her quote, was to serve as an explanation for where Kojima found his inspiration for Gray Fox (aka. Frankenstein's Monster). Sort of like an oddly placed Easter egg within MGS 3 to reference his earlier work.

 

[Frank Jaeger]

And that's exactly what it was. I think it was even wrote about somewhere

He added other bits to the other characters too if i remember, i can't remember what now but each had a Kojima gene

That's a pretty interesting find . I doubt that it was intentional, because she really seemed obsessed about Godzilla. From the way that Paramedic would babble on about movies, you'd think that she was an extension of Kojima's persona in the game.

Anyway, maybe the purpose of her quote, was to serve as an explanation for where Kojima found his inspiration for Gray Fox (aka. Frankenstein's Monster).