Media Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain & Ground Zeroes

[ronri]

Personally, I think Big Boss unlike Solid Snake- brought some of it onto himself regardless if his sufferings were under the guise of Zero's tyranny or The Boss's will. Solid Snake always wanted out post-Metal Gear 2 and even had a civilian like in Alaska but was cut short of his retirement and unlike BB, he used his skills post-MGS1 to eradicate Metal Gears and play with Otacon's action figures rather than fan the flames of war. He doesn't have the baggage BB has and his intention was always more noble.

I definitely agree with this. Even after MGS4, I never saw Big Boss, Ocelot, Liquid and Solidus as heroes. Yes, they were fighting the Patriots, but even in the end by MGS4's epilogue, Big Boss makes it clear that their methods and failures resulted in the cluster-**** that was the endless cycle of bloodshed in light of the A.I. Patriots' rule, and it was pretty clear that he himself deviated from the idealistic notions that The Boss had projected onto him to carry on. I mean, are we seriously forgetting one of the most heart-breaking lines in the series? (even if it was uttered after one of the most long-driven exposition scenes, surely the line was memorable enough for fans of the series)

"The world would be better off without snakes." - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IXTNfxgxEI

I know people say that MGS4 glorified Big Boss and Ocelot, but as a huge fan of both (they're among my top most favorites out of the entire series so don't get the idea I'm demonizing them), I honestly never felt that way. If anything, having played the game multiple times for the story (seriously, I've read and watched so many clips of Ocelot too many times, both on my PSX/PS2/PS3 or on Youtube) I honestly felt that it actually condemned their actions, albeit in a depressing light. Heck even Ocelot's final battle, I know folks got a raging hard-on for the nostalgia it brought from the past three games, but I honestly thought it was depressing as it felt like a huge stab at the notion of nostalgia itself (the fact that it was the only time Ocelot properly regained his full personality makes it even more depressing in a not-so-glorified way). It's why it felt utterly natural for Snake to point a gun at BB the moment he appeared, and it's why it felt natural that BB would react the way he did as even he acknowledged how he never saw Snake as his son (only finally coming to respect him as a fellow man by the end of MGS4).

As much as I love Big Boss more, I consider the anti-hero Solid Snake as being the closest to an actual hero-protagonist in the series. Snake's ideals embodied what The Boss had wanted for everybody (desiring peace and harmony, and living out a normal life). I always thought it was wrong for people to accuse Solid Snake's efforts as being rendered moot as stopping his enemies were actually for the best, even if it meant keeping the status quo. Yeah, Liquid was against The Patriots, but he wanted to hold the entire world ransom while running a tyrannical rule that would welcome and glorify soldiers. Even Solidus was willing to let Arsenal Gear go berserk if it gave him enough chance to hunt down The Patriots (going so far as to want to kill Raiden just to get a lead on them). Solid Snake's efforts weren't wasted at all, if anything it paved the way for Ocelot to come up with the best plan, and even then he never achieved the full extent of his plan (which he was touting as being the new "Wild West" of all things).

Always remember that in PW, Big Boss acknowledges how he wanted to deviate from The Boss's ideals as he felt that she betrayed herself as a soldier and in turn, betrayed him as the soldier who once mentored him. And yeah I agree, I always felt that even with all the good intentions, Big Boss brought some of the problems unto himself and I always felt his pragmatism and desire to uphold his status as a soldier put his ideals under a morally questionable light.

 

[pturtle]

https://www.ign.com/videos/2014/04/05/hideo-kojima-how-hollywood-inspired-metal-gear

Pretty cool video

Pretty crazy he didn’t mention EFNY. I’ve never seen The Great Escape, I might have to check that out tonight.

 

[Henry Morgan*]

The thing is people are used to the classic story of good vs evil, I think MGS4 was great and even perfect in many ways. My image of Big Boss never changed ever since I heard Wolf talking about him I knew he was tragic ''hero'' that never changed for me. Solid Snake is and will always be the good guy, and the only one that could die peacefully of old age

Anyway I found a great article about GZ
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/h...s-stealth-by-making-failure-fun/1100-6418681/

 

[pturtle]

The thing is people are used to the classic story of good vs evil, I think MGS4 was great and even perfect in many ways. My image of Big Boss never changed ever since I heard Wolf talking about him I knew he was tragic ''hero'' that never changed for me. Solid Snake is and will always be the good guy, and the only one that could die peacefully of old age

Anyway I found a great article about GZ
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/h...s-stealth-by-making-failure-fun/1100-6418681/

Awesome article, one thing I know about TPP thanks to GZ, the gameplay will be insane.

 

[Henry Morgan*]

All I need is at least one fist fight in TPP and thats it so far everything sounds great, love your signature btw

 

[pturtle]

All I need is at least one fist fight in TPP and thats it so far everything sounds great, love your signature btw

Thanks

I know this is the wrong thread, but did you catch TWS yet? The movie was incredible, it’s in my top 10 superhero films of all time.

 

[Henry Morgan*]

YES! Great movie and I was fangirling all over the Winter Soldier its really a great figure.

Already pre ordered Golden Age Cap, Black Widow and The winter Soldier, I'll PO the two pack Cap aswell

 

[Jack D]

Going to see TWS tomorrow, can't wait. I came out of retirement and went all-out, preordering all the figures from HT so far lol.

 

[pturtle]

YES! Great movie and I was fangirling all over the Winter Soldier its really a great figure.

Already pre ordered Golden Age Cap, Black Widow and The winter Soldier, I'll PO the two pack Cap aswell

I missed the out on GA Cap! I ended up ordering the two pack only. I'm hoping we get a Nick Fury, after TWS he's probably my favorite character in the MS cinematic universe which is crazy because I hated him in every other marvel film.

Going to see TWS tomorrow, can't wait. I came out of retirement and went all-out, preordering all the figures from HT so far lol.

You're in for a treat man. The movie is incredible, it feels a lot different from the rest of the marvel films that have been released. It's more mature, great writing, and the action is some of the best ever. Let me know what you think when you get back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[krec9]

Thanks

I know this is the wrong thread, but did you catch TWS yet? The movie was incredible, it’s in my top 10 superhero films of all time.

Really liking your sig nice would you rate TWS better then the TDK?

 

[pturtle]

Thanks! I wouldn't, but I'm one of those superhero fans who prefer things more grounded and serious, which Cap was compared to the rest of what Marvel has been putting out recently. I think it was as perfect as a CA movie can be. I hope Marvel sticks to making the others films tones in the universe like TWS because it was a well balanced film, fun and serious. The movie seriously exceeded my expectations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Solidus]

I definitely agree with this. Even after MGS4, I never saw Big Boss, Ocelot, Liquid and Solidus as heroes. Yes, they were fighting the Patriots, but even in the end by MGS4's epilogue, Big Boss makes it clear that their methods and failures resulted in the cluster-**** that was the endless cycle of bloodshed in light of the A.I. Patriots' rule, and it was pretty clear that he himself deviated from the idealistic notions that The Boss had projected onto him to carry on. I mean, are we seriously forgetting one of the most heart-breaking lines in the series? (even if it was uttered after one of the most long-driven exposition scenes, surely the line was memorable enough for fans of the series)

"The world would be better off without snakes." - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IXTNfxgxEI

I know people say that MGS4 glorified Big Boss and Ocelot, but as a huge fan of both (they're among my top most favorites out of the entire series so don't get the idea I'm demonizing them), I honestly never felt that way. If anything, having played the game multiple times for the story (seriously, I've read and watched so many clips of Ocelot too many times, both on my PSX/PS2/PS3 or on Youtube) I honestly felt that it actually condemned their actions, albeit in a depressing light. Heck even Ocelot's final battle, I know folks got a raging hard-on for the nostalgia it brought from the past three games, but I honestly thought it was depressing as it felt like a huge stab at the notion of nostalgia itself (the fact that it was the only time Ocelot properly regained his full personality makes it even more depressing in a not-so-glorified way). It's why it felt utterly natural for Snake to point a gun at BB the moment he appeared, and it's why it felt natural that BB would react the way he did as even he acknowledged how he never saw Snake as his son (only finally coming to respect him as a fellow man by the end of MGS4).

As much as I love Big Boss more, I consider the anti-hero Solid Snake as being the closest to an actual hero-protagonist in the series. Snake's ideals embodied what The Boss had wanted for everybody (desiring peace and harmony, and living out a normal life). I always thought it was wrong for people to accuse Solid Snake's efforts as being rendered moot as stopping his enemies were actually for the best, even if it meant keeping the status quo. Yeah, Liquid was against The Patriots, but he wanted to hold the entire world ransom while running a tyrannical rule that would welcome and glorify soldiers. Even Solidus was willing to let Arsenal Gear go berserk if it gave him enough chance to hunt down The Patriots (going so far as to want to kill Raiden just to get a lead on them). Solid Snake's efforts weren't wasted at all, if anything it paved the way for Ocelot to come up with the best plan, and even then he never achieved the full extent of his plan (which he was touting as being the new "Wild West" of all things).

Always remember that in PW, Big Boss acknowledges how he wanted to deviate from The Boss's ideals as he felt that she betrayed herself as a soldier and in turn, betrayed him as the soldier who once mentored him. And yeah I agree, I always felt that even with all the good intentions, Big Boss brought some of the problems unto himself and I always felt his pragmatism and desire to uphold his status as a soldier put his ideals under a morally questionable light.

It's obvious that Kojima has had a major liking for Sacco and Vanzetti - socialist anarchists who wanted to overthrow (in what they saw as) a "corrupt government" through bombings and the use of violence. It's the fine line of "moral gray" in MGS 4 that I don't appreciate. In my mind, Solid Snake's reputation was devalued for the sense that he stopped the "heroic anarchists" from carrying out their plans - which, although selfish in their motivations, would have freed the world from from the status quo of The Patriot's control. I guess how you interpret the ending of MGS 4, depends on whether you accept that "the end justifies the means", or if you look at things as being more black and white - in the sense, that you judge Solid Snake on his noble personality alone, and not the end results of what his action entailed. However, if you're only focusing on the latter, then in my opinion, you fail to understand what actually constitutes a "hero", because Solid Snake didn't even save the world at the end of MGS 4 - it was all Ocelot's doing through careful manipulation and planning, where he was using Solid Snake like the unknowing pawn the entire time.

As for Liquid, he was actually being kept like a dog on a leash by Ocelot and Solidus. They saw his insurrection of Shadow Moses and his use of REX as a means to retrieve Big Boss's body and free him from The Patriots' AI system. So, it's improbable that they would have allowed Liquid to carry out his plans of "world domination". Solidus wanted to be the sole successor to Big Boss's legacy. But, unlike Big Boss, he never cared for an "Army without a nation". He was a righteous and patriot bastard in MGS 2 who just wanted to free America, from what he regarded as the tyrannical control of The Patriots (even if he had to "crack a few eggs" in order to do so).

 

[Henry Morgan*]

About Nicola and Bart

Beware then of the misuse of the symbols and let’s stay at the level of the reasons for which Michael Dukakis, governor of the Massachusetts in 1977, decided, this very year, to celebrate, each August 23, the « Sacco & Vanzetti day »: « (to have) the courage to oppose to the forces of the intolerance, of the fear and of the hate and to unify for the triumph of the reason, of the impartiality and of the wisdom that our judiciary system needs »

I think Kojima likes the song because he saw the movie, (I barely know anything about them or that particular time of history so I think I should shut up about that)

Sunny saved the world actually
If he succeded or not or if he was used is a different issue, the spirit of a hero is still there BUT in MGS4 he simply says he has "things left to do"

What I like about MGS4 is that the game is like an allegory to the state of the franchise at that time, Snake is a relic in a digitized battlefield he is no longer relevant.. the game launched at the time when meaningless FPS games with 0 development in story and gameplay ruled.

But that creates a problem, it makes you believe he is no longer relevant in the context of the story itself. Its kind of a mess, just like MGS2.. I have to play that game again anyway there are a few things I don't remember.

Basically I believe Snake suffered from the state of the franchise at that time, the state of the franchise as Kojima saw it


BTW I think MGS2 Snake and MGS4 Snake are like totally different characters, MGS2 Snake is more mature and evolved imho

 

[Solidus]

Sunny saved the world actually
If he succeded or not or if he was used is a different issue, the spirit of a hero is still there BUT in MGS4 he simply says he has "things left to do"

What I like about MGS4 is that the game is like an allegory to the state of the franchise at that time, Snake is a relic in a digitalized battlefield he is no longer relevant anymore.. the game launched at the time when meaningless FPS games with 0 development in story and gameplay ruled.

But that creates a problem, it makes you believe he is no longer relevant in the context of the story itself. Its kind of a mess, just like MGS2.. I have to play that game again anyway there are a few things I don't remember.

Basically I believe Snake suffered from the state of the franchise at that time, the state of the franchise as Kojima saw it


BTW I think MGS2 Snake and MGS4 Snake are like totally different characters, MGS2 Snake is more mature and evolved imho

I also hated the way that Snake became this depressed and tired character, and everyone made fun of in MGS 4. It was a strange transition from MGS 2 that showed him as this wise and experienced soldier - who had all of the answers to life figured out.

But, I think you raise a good point. The story for MGS 4 probably suffered the most because of these weird allegories that Kojima tried to include.

 

[Solidus]

I just noticed that I missed out on the pre-order for Golden Age cap. I still have the smiley face Cap figure from the first movie, but man... .

 

[Henry Morgan*]

I also hated the way that Snake became this depressed and tired character, and everyone made fun of in MGS 4. It was a strange transition from MGS 2 that showed him as this wise and experienced soldier - who had all of the answers to life figured out.

But, I think you raise a good point. The story for MGS 4 probably suffered the most because of these weird allegories that Kojima tried to include.

He is like a demigod in that game he is like the cool guy that doesn't show up because he is too cool to hang out with the minions, reminds me of Goku when he is dead, he doesn't show up all the time but when he is on screen things get fun and intresting


I didn't know anyone else here was into Marvel other than pturtle and me, I Po'd Golden Age Cap but I was considering to sell it to get the first version (for the guns) but people keep telling me to just buy the guns

 

[Solidus]

He is like a demigod in that game he is like the cool guy that doesn't show up because he is too cool to hang out with the minions, reminds me of Goku when he is dead, he doesn't show up all the time but when he is on screen is when things get fun and intresting


I didn't know anyone else here was into Marvel other than pturtle and me, I Po'd Golden Age Cap but I was considering to sell it to get the first version (for the guns) but people keep telling me to just buy the guns

That's a good way of putting it!

I'm more into DC and Batman, but I love Captain America and Wolverine. I'm kind of confused, though. Is Golden Age cap supposed to be the same costume from the first movie, except changed in some ways for "The Winter Soldier"?

 

[pturtle]

That's a good way of putting it!

I'm more into DC and Batman, but I love Captain America and Wolverine. I'm kind of confused, though. Is Golden Age cap supposed to be the same costume from the first movie, except changed in some ways for "The Winter Soldier"?

Its kind of spoiler territory if we told you.

 

[Henry Morgan*]

That's a good way of putting it!

I'm more into DC and Batman, but I love Captain America and Wolverine. I'm kind of confused, though. Is Golden Age cap supposed to be the same costume from the first movie, except changed in some ways for "The Winter Soldier"?

Mh.. more or less its supposed to be the exact same costume but its not there are a few differences, they changed it because they wanted to, its like a little recton

 

[Solidus]

Mh.. more or less its supossed to be the exact same costume but its not there are a few differences, they changed it because they wanted to, its like a little recton

Ah, thanks Henry . It looked like the same costume, except just slightly changed. So, that's why I was wondering if it was an entirely new costume all together - or, if they just modified the First Avengers one for the new movie.

Spoiler

I know all about what happened to Bucky from the comics, by the way. I don't mind being spoiled on this (even if just a little) .