Media Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain & Ground Zeroes

[pturtle]

And I'm almost certain he will.

Release date Kojima!!!!!!


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[Henry Morgan*]

My sentiments exactly. I don't care for Kojima sticking to using "Snake" as BB's codename, I'd just like to see BB doing horrible stuff by MGSV. Contrary to what I see people mentioning here, PW already had me viewing Big Boss in a questionable light, and that has little to do with him coming into conflict with Zero. Listening to his conversations and how he literally finds thrill and glory in the battlefield might be one thing, but outright rejecting the idealistic notions of The Boss just because he felt butt-hurt about her "betraying" him as a soldier definitely made me raise an eyebrow. Heck, it's hilarious that by the end in one of the Briefing Files Strangelove understood The Boss's final will so quickly when it took BB like what? Multiple games until he died in MGS4 to fully understand it? Big Boss's mentality in PW's ending is already Big Boss as we knew him (seriously, who welcomes a 12-13 year old kid into his army like it's some kind of blessing?) rather his actions just need to reflect those ideals come MGSV; which I think is the most crucial part that Kojima really needs to tackle in TPP.

See? thats why he is a Snake he could have been as bad and Solidus if he wasn't raised by The Boss ... but her intentions were never trully clear, I don't know what Strangelove said.. I don't remember but I doubt that ***** understood The Boss, only Big Boss understood her at the end of Metal Gear Saga, her message was more or less like this

"surrender to the times and do nothing"

After all her speeches.. she is confusing but she only believed in the mission, so it makes sense I guess, I think Big Boss was better than her in many ways he at least had the guts to try to change the world

 

[ronri]

See? thats why he is a Snake he could have been as bad and Solidus if he wasn't raised by The Boss ... but her intentions were never trully clear, I don't know what Strangelove said.. I don't remember but I doubt that ***** understood The Boss, only Big Boss understood her at the end of Metal Gear Saga, her message was more or less like this

"surrender to the times and do nothing"

Actually no, as much as I love Big Boss, Strangelove literally got a better grasp of The Boss's will at the end of PW than Big Boss did (and he only got it by the end of MGS4). The Boss's final will wasn't as simple as "surrendering to the times", mainly she wanted Big Boss to know the truth of her horrible life (through Eva and so on and so forth) just so he wouldn't live the same kind of troubled life of a loyal soldier so he can go off and do other things to better help society without notions of destroying it. Strangelove took it as moving on while adopting the outlook of simply improving society with her scientific research, Big Boss on the other hand thought that because The Boss ended up despising her life as a soldier, he took it as a "betrayal" because he felt that the mentor he knew wasn't the glorious soldier he made her out to be. And from that, his best solution is literally becoming a revolutionary military leader with a new world order..... so yeah, literally the farthest thing that The Boss could have ever wanted for him.

The Boss's sacrifice was purposeful in that it was done so that BB would learn from her mistakes (so if anything, she purposely went through all that crap for Big Boss' sake), except the worst part is that he literally went the other way and nearly brought the whole world down with him even if his goals involved stopping Zero. Solid Snake's actions actually fall closer in line with The Boss's ideals, heck it's the very same reason why The Boss was initially designed to have the same sneaking suit as Snake until Kojima changed it to the white/silver that we got in MGS3 (this is actually true as it was mentioned in Kojima's commentary for MGS3, and it really speaks of the difference between Snake and BB on a thematic level). I mean I love Big Boss and all, but he has a lot of faults that still fall in line with what we'll end up getting in the original Metal Gear, and it's for those very same flaws that I like the character at all.

 

[pturtle]

Actually no, as much as I love Big Boss, Strangelove literally got a better grasp of The Boss's will at the end of PW than Big Boss did (and he only got it by the end of MGS4). The Boss's final will wasn't as simple as "surrendering to the times", mainly she wanted Big Boss to know the truth of her horrible life (through Eva and so on and so forth) just so he wouldn't live the same kind of troubled life of a loyal soldier so he can go off and do other things to better help society without notions of destroying it. Strangelove took it as moving on while adopting the outlook of simply improving society with her scientific research, Big Boss on the other hand thought that because The Boss ended up despising her life as a soldier, he took it as a "betrayal" because he felt that the mentor he knew wasn't the glorious soldier he made her out to be. And from that, his best solution is literally becoming a revolutionary military leader with a new world order..... so yeah, literally the farthest thing that The Boss could have ever wanted for him.

The Boss's sacrifice was purposeful in that it was done so that BB would learn from her mistakes (so if anything, it was all for Big Boss' sake), except the worst part is that he literally went the other way and nearly brought the whole world down with him even if his goals involved stopping Zero. Solid Snake's actions actually fall closer in line with The Boss's ideals, heck it's the very same reason why The Boss was initially designed to have the same sneaking suit as Snake until Kojima changed it to the white/silver that we got in MGS3. I mean I love Big Boss and all, but he has a lot of faults that still fall in line with what we'll end up getting in the original Metal Gear, and it's for those very same flaws that I like the character at all.

I think I'm gonna go back and play PW, this is all solid info I ended up forgetting. You're right though, the fact that he misunderstood her will, adds to his character, makes things that more tragic for both of them.


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[ronri]

I think I'm gonna I back and play PW, this is all solid info I ended up forgetting. You're right though, the fact that he misunderstood her will, adds to his character, makes things that more tragic for both of them.

I'm not gonna lie, it's why I enjoyed PW even with all the A.I. stuff (though admittedly A.I. related stories always catch my eye), mainly because I felt that it cleared up what The Boss really wanted for BB and how BB came to reject it in the end. And yeah it's definitely tragic, but I'm not one to romanticize Big Boss just because his initial intentions were well-meaning, and PW certainly pushed him closer to the Big Boss we know from Metal Gear enough that I actually found it surprising since I rarely see many fans raise eyebrows over his declaration in being "different" to The Boss despite everything that The Boss went through for his sake.

 

[Henry Morgan*]

Actually no, as much as I love Big Boss, Strangelove literally got a better grasp of The Boss's will at the end of PW than Big Boss did (and he only got it by the end of MGS4). The Boss's final will wasn't as simple as "surrendering to the times", mainly she wanted Big Boss to know the truth of her horrible life (through Eva and so on and so forth) just so he wouldn't live the same kind of troubled life of a loyal soldier so he can go off and do other things to better help society without notions of destroying it. Strangelove took it as moving on while adopting the outlook of simply improving society with her scientific research, Big Boss on the other hand thought that because The Boss ended up despising her life as a soldier, he took it as a "betrayal" because he felt that the mentor he knew wasn't the glorious soldier he made her out to be. And from that, his best solution is literally becoming a revolutionary military leader with a new world order..... so yeah, literally the farthest thing that The Boss could have ever wanted for him.

The Boss's sacrifice was purposeful in that it was done so that BB would learn from her mistakes (so if anything, she purposely went through all that crap for Big Boss' sake), except the worst part is that he literally went the other way and nearly brought the whole world down with him even if his goals involved stopping Zero. Solid Snake's actions actually fall closer in line with The Boss's ideals, heck it's the very same reason why The Boss was initially designed to have the same sneaking suit as Snake until Kojima changed it to the white/silver that we got in MGS3 (this is actually true as it was mentioned in Kojima's commentary for MGS3, and it really speaks of the difference between Snake and BB on a thematic level). I mean I love Big Boss and all, but he has a lot of faults that still fall in line with what we'll end up getting in the original Metal Gear, and it's for those very same flaws that I like the character at all.

He was already a revolutionary military leader before getting mad at the Boss, I think strangelove took it as something more like "make love not war" because of the silly song at the end, I think Peace Walker wasn't 100% like the Boss that was misleading.

If she threw her old life away he threw Big Boss along with it, even if she told him everything I don't think someone like Big Boss would leave and let the philosophers rule, good or bad what Big Boss did HAD to be done the world needed someone with the guts to do that

"Who commits treason is only matter of the date"

I'm not gonna lie, it's why I enjoyed PW even with all the A.I. stuff (though admittedly A.I. related stories always catch my eye), mainly because I felt that it cleared up what The Boss really wanted for BB and how BB came to reject it in the end. And yeah it's definitely tragic, but I'm not one to romanticize Big Boss just because his initial intentions were well-meaning, and PW certainly pushed him closer to the Big Boss we know from Metal Gear enough that I actually found it surprising since I rarely see many fans raise eyebrows over his declaration in being "different" to The Boss despite everything that The Boss went through for his sake.

All I know is that I would do the same in his place I just couldn't live knowing that Zero is out there making a mess, what would've happened if Big Boss did nothing? ...

 

[ronri]

If she threw her old life away he threw Big Boss along with it, even if she told him I don't think someone like Big Boss would leave and let the philosophers rule, good or bad what Big Boss did had to be done the world needed someone with the guts to do that

Well not quite, he became a military leader yet MSF was closer to PMCs than a full-blown military-led dictatorship like Outer Heaven which is what I was referring to. I wouldn't say that throwing her "old life" away was in any way meant to show her abandonment towards Big Boss, rather Big Boss felt betrayed because their student-mentor relationship was built on them being soldiers. Remember unlike Snake who does it because it's what he's simply good at, Big Boss actually prides himself as a soldier and loves the battlefield, so learning that The Boss didn't desire such a life left him disillusioned and alienated towards her ideals. And honestly, I wouldn't blame The Boss for it as her actions were less like "kill myself because I hate this life and screw anyone who loved me" but more of "remain loyal as a tortured soldier till the end so my pupil would learn from my very own mistakes".

As such, it's what makes Ocelot and Snake's rivalry in MGS4 so reflective of The Boss and BB: Solid Snake remaining idealistic in the end (the same way that BB initially was in MGS3) played well into Ocelot taking on the role of the designated "villain" (similar to what The Boss did in MGS3). If anything, Solid Snake's actions as part of Philanthropy falls closer in line with The Boss's ideals. Of course that's only ideal in a world where there's no A.I. Patriots. Admittedly this leads to another point of mine....

All I know is that I would do that same in his place I just can't like knowing that Zero is out there making a mess, what would've happened if Big Boss did nothing? ...

I do think it's that feeling of internal struggle and trying to find your place in a crappy world that people tend to like about Big Boss, so it makes sense why you'd feel that way. Like I said, ideally in a world without a looming organization like The Patriots, Snake's occupation as an anti-Metal Gear operative for Philanthropy is by far the closest to what The Boss could have possibly wanted for Big Boss. Of course, given that I said "ideally", The Patriots complicate all this, which is why it's more accurate to say that it was the combined efforts of the central cast of MGS4 that took down such a system (specifically, Snake + Otacon as the idealistic enforcers, Ocelot + Eva as the puppeteers, Sunny + Naomi as the progressive minds).

I should mention, that this time of "peace" that was brought on by Snake and co. was pretty short-lived as evidenced in MGR, which does play well with a lot of themes of nihilism that Kojima loves to do. Now as an aside from all this, personally I find that this is exactly where Raiden fits in perfectly as the vigilante archetype that would combat that same environment of manipulation/corruption. To glaringly para-phrase TDK: Snake is the hero that the world needs, but given the non-stop corruption and general veil of nihilism held over the franchise and the MGS world in general, it's fairly accurate to say that Raiden is the hero it deserves (specifically his mindset in MGR).

Anyway I feel like I indulged in this discussion long enough, so feel free to carry on with anything GZ-related.

 

[Baneofdemon22]

Perfectly said, I don't know why it bothers anyone that he still goes by Snake. We know eventually he'll only be known as Big Boss, even if it's just or marketing, who's it hurting?

I just hope Kojima makes him go full evil, that's actually what's important to the character, story, and what really separates him from Solid.

I completely agree. Big Boss is my favorite fictional character and a lot of that relies on my knowledge of his endgame. People complain that he saw Boss' choice as a betrayal and ignored Eva's message, and for the other character flaws he has. Do you want a bad guy or not? He's a selfish and egotistical soldier, and you're not going to get that inspiring speech about faith from him, like Solid Snake at the end of MGS2. I really like sympathetic villains like Magneto and Ra's al Ghul that believe the end justify the means. Nothing that Kojima has done so far changed my view from thinking Solid Snake is the legendary hero, and Big Boss is the legendary villain. I like them building dimension to his character, and can't wait to hear evil Jack Bauer. I wanted Kiefer to play Big Boss in MGS3, and am happy that he's finally taking over the role for MGSV.

 

[Snake Plissken]

Wall after wall after wall of text.

 

[Henry Morgan*]

Well not quite, he became a military leader yet MSF was closer to PMCs than a full-blown military-led dictatorship like Outer Heaven which is what I was referring to. I wouldn't say that throwing her "old life" away was in any way meant to show her abandonment towards Big Boss, rather Big Boss felt betrayed because their student-mentor relationship was built on them being soldiers. Remember unlike Snake who does it because it's what he's simply good at, Big Boss actually prides himself as a soldier and loves the battlefield, so learning that The Boss didn't desire such a life left him disillusioned and alienated towards her ideals. And honestly, I wouldn't blame The Boss for it as her actions were less like "kill myself because I hate this life and screw anyone who loved me" but more of "remain loyal as a tortured soldier till the end so my pupil would learn from my very own mistakes".

As such, it's what makes Ocelot and Snake's rivalry in MGS4 so reflective of The Boss and BB: Solid Snake remaining idealistic in the end (the same way that BB initially was in MGS3) played well into Ocelot taking on the role of the designated "villain" (similar to what The Boss did in MGS3). If anything, Solid Snake's actions as part of Philanthropy falls closer in line with The Boss's ideals. Of course that's only ideal in a world where there's no A.I. Patriots. Admittedly this leads to another point of mine....



I do think it's that feeling of internal struggle and trying to find your place in a crappy world that people tend to like about Big Boss, so it makes sense why you'd feel that way. Like I said, ideally in a world without a looming organization like The Patriots, Snake's occupation as an anti-Metal Gear operative for Philanthropy is by far the closest to what The Boss could have possibly wanted for Big Boss. Of course, given that I said "ideally", The Patriots complicate all this, which is why it's more accurate to say that it was the combined efforts of the central cast of MGS4 that took down such a system (specifically, Snake + Otacon as the idealistic enforcers, Ocelot + Eva as the puppeteers, Sunny + Naomi as the progressive minds).

I should mention, that this time of "peace" that was brought on by Snake and co. was pretty short-lived as evidenced in MGR, which does play well with a lot of themes of nihilism that Kojima loves to do. Now as an aside from all this, personally I find that this is exactly where Raiden fits in perfectly as the vigilante archetype that would combat that same environment of manipulation/corruption. To glaringly para-phrase TDK: Snake is the hero that the world needs, but given the non-stop corruption and general veil of nihilism held over the franchise and the MGS world in general, it's fairly accurate to say that Raiden is the hero it deserves (specifically his mindset in MGR).

Snake enjoys all the killing as well, even Liquid knew that, he just doesn't show his feelings.

I think even the Boss would want the Patriots dead, remember when she lived the world only had the Philosophers... that behave just like any organization of leaders, the Patriots are far worse.

I think not fighting at all fits more into The Boss's ideals, she is all about the times.
And Big Boss was like that too, its all about the times...

"...If the times demand it, we'll be revolutionaries, criminals, terrorists... "

They are very alike actually, she just didn't want to fight anymore.

Its not about trying to find my place in a crappy world, what I really like about Big Boss is going against the established system that we all accept just because we are born in it


Nullius in Verva

"Take nobody's word for it" in other words, defy the system. That sums up how I think


What Snake (I mean Sunny ) did in MGS4 was saving the world no more no less, there will always be something else to fix or destroy as long as humanity exists, I love Raiden now I can take him as the new hero of the saga I can't wait for MGR2!

 

[Jameson Rook]

Wall after wall after wall of text.

A long time ago, I was in Burma. My friends and I were working for the local government. They were trying to buy the loyalty of tribal leaders by bribing them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. So, we went looking for the stones. But in six months, we never met anybody who traded with him. One day, I saw a child playing with a ruby the size of a tangerine. The bandit had been throwing them away.

Hey! You still with me?

 

[ronri]

I completely agree. Big Boss is my favorite fictional character and a lot of that relies on my knowledge of his endgame. People complain that he saw Boss' choice as a betrayal and ignored Eva's message, and for the other character flaws he has. Do you want a bad guy or not? He's a selfish and egotistical soldier, and you're not going to get that inspiring speech about faith from him, like Solid Snake at the end of MGS2. I really like sympathetic villains like Magneto and Ra's al Ghul that believe the end justify the means. Nothing that Kojima has done so far changed my view from thinking Solid Snake is the legendary hero, and Big Boss is the legendary villain. I like them building dimension to his character, and can't wait to hear evil Jack Bauer. I wanted Kiefer to play Big Boss in MGS3, and am happy that he's finally taking over the role for MGSV.

Well in all honesty, even if I was the one bringing up his flaws, it's those very same flaws that made me like the character as well. I should say I have a general love for antagonists (especially well-meaning yet destructive antagonists like Ocelot with an eff' all mentality to boot), so while I love Solid Snake and treat him as the legendary hero of the series, sadly for the Snake lovers, Big Boss's role as a tragic villain leans closer to my love for antagonists.

 

[Snake Plissken]

A long time ago, I was in Burma. My friends and I were working for the local government. They were trying to buy the loyalty of tribal leaders by bribing them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. So, we went looking for the stones. But in six months, we never met anybody who traded with him. One day, I saw a child playing with a ruby the size of a tangerine. The bandit had been throwing them away.

Hey! You still with me?

 

[ronri]

 

[pturtle]

People getting upset that there's too much discussion going on in a discussion board? Gotta love this thread.


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[Snake Plissken]

Seeing posts that are basically 5 page essays over and over is annoying.

 

[Henry Morgan*]

I have to read long scientific papers and essays all the time, I don't mind

I'm used to this

 

[pturtle]

Come on, you can’t honestly be upset about that. Don’t read them then, Ronri is posting some awesome stuff and theres finally a discussion going on here about the games and not how much Kojima sucks.

 

[ronri]

Seeing posts that are basically 5 page essays over and over is annoying.

You should have seen my other ones.

People getting upset that there's too much discussion going on in a discussion board? Gotta love this thread.

True, though I'll admit that I've already finished giving my fair share on the discussion.
But hey what can you do...

 

[pturtle]

You should have seen my other ones.



True, though I'll admit that I've already finished giving my fair share on the discussion, but hey what can you do...

Keep up the posts man, they actually make for a good read. You’ve already reminded me about a lot of stuff I forgot in PW.