Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Khev]

Hey! Your post count in this thread has been way too sparse lately. It ain't as much fun catching up on it without your takes being more frequent. Do I have to keep bashing TROS more to keep you posting?

Ha ha, I haven't been posting as much lately due to a combination of more stuff going on in real life and the fact that I may have said about all I can say about SW at this point, including TROS, lol.

I think Rey was shown to be "better" because she and Luke had both been Jedi for about 2-3 years when they each encountered Palpatine in a throne room scene, but it was Rey who was quicker on her feet and more aware of her options with the Force. She did things that make it look like Luke wasn't aware of how to use Jedi skills as proficiently.

I'm fine with that considering that when Rey faced Palpatine she had been training under an actual living master (Leia) for 2-3 years compared to Luke only training 2-3 weeks under Yoda before spending the remaining years figuring things out on his own with no master, no texts.

If Luke had Rey's awareness, he could've Force-pulled his saber and used it to defend himself. Instead, he writhed around on the floor begging for help. Now, if he did that only to appeal to his father's compassion, then no problem. But I don't think either one of us believes that.

Yep, Force Lightning was definitely a surprise to Luke (in part due to ROTJ introducing it as a surprise where the PT and ST present it as a more commonly used Sith ability) but that can be attributed to him receiving more abridged training/instruction than Rey.

What Rey did was use her knowledge of the Force to understand what lightsabers could do when Palps was using lightning. She used that knowledge to subdue and defeat him with self-defense tactics and no attack. An A+ grade from the school of Jedi. Luke got bailed out by Vader instead of using his Jedi skills. That's why I say JJ made Rey come across like she was better than Luke. Similar scenarios, but greater proficiency.

Greater proficiency yes, I agree. Though in the end her more advanced skills did cause her to end up dead (temporary as it may have been thanks to Ben) while Luke walked away from Palps' death (temporary as it may have been thanks to dark magic and cloning ) without a scratch.

Not sure what you're suggesting that Yoda and Obi-Wan expected from Luke. If you're saying that they expected something other than Anakin returning to the light to help his son, then I'm inclined to disagree.

In all honesty I don't think Ben and Yoda had a clue what even THEY expected from Luke, lol.

Their gameplan in ROTJ seemed to basically go like this:

1. Guilt Luke into leaving Dagobah to kill his own father.

2. ???????????

3. Victory

lol

 

[jal76]

I don?t think that is in the books... just a dumb statement by an idiot author in an interview

***?You know Jyn Erso, the woman who started it all and destroyed the Death Star? The first one, the real one I mean?
?General Skywalker and Red Squadron destroyed the Death Star,? Nath said.
?Skywalker fired the last shot was all, Jyn did everything that mattered.? I met her once.***

Except from Star Wars: Alphabet Squadron published June 4, 2019. Sorry dude.

 

[Khev]

***?You know Jyn Erso, the woman who started it all and destroyed the Death Star? The first one, the real one I mean?
?General Skywalker and Red Squadron destroyed the Death Star,? Nath said.
?Skywalker fired the last shot was all, Jyn did everything that mattered.? I met her once.***

Except from Star Wars: Alphabet Squadron published June 4, 2019. Sorry dude.

One of the dumbest things any SW author has ever written. Literally NO ONE in the Alliance knew that Jyn even WENT to Scariff since Bodhi was the only one who sent any transmissions after the big council meeting on Yavin.

 

[jal76]

One of the dumbest things any SW author has ever written. Literally NO ONE in the Alliance knew that Jyn even WENT to Scariff since Bodhi was the only one who sent any transmissions after the big council meeting on Yavin.

Yep...these boneheaded writers...and frankly the boneheads at Lucasfilm who edit and approve these books are so eager to dismantle the OT characters that they are tripping over themselves and releasing books that literally make no sense beyond humiliating the characters that the majority of Star Wars fans actually appreciate.
The author of this one also happened to write the Rogue One Novelization so you would really assume that he would know better...

 

[JAWS]

***?You know Jyn Erso, the woman who started it all and destroyed the Death Star? The first one, the real one I mean?
?General Skywalker and Red Squadron destroyed the Death Star,? Nath said.
?Skywalker fired the last shot was all, Jyn did everything that mattered.? I met her once.***

Except from Star Wars: Alphabet Squadron published June 4, 2019. Sorry dude.

Well that is dumb... so happy books are not canon to me

 

[JAWS]

1.) He only puts his hands down when he's already breaking apart and screaming. And you're forgetting that he targeted Resistance ships with that lightning miles across the sky! With that kind of control, he could've sent the beams all the way around the room and struck Rey from every conceivable angle.

2.) So, you're saying that the Jedi were conducting the lightning onto Palpatine? Then they didn't need Palps using it himself since Rey has Force lightning powers too. And if the Jedi were helping, why in the world would they need the second lightsaber before they could start reflecting the beams back?

3.) It's one thing to put up your saber (that you're already holding) in an act of self defense, but it's another thing to pull a second saber because you somehow know that crossing a couple of them is what will redirect lightning. Rey putting up the lightsaber she was already holding was consistent with the PT scenes. But Rey pulling a lightsaber for more than self-defense was a case of much greater instinctive awareness.

4.) Luke threw away his saber because he refused to play Palpatine's game and use his weapon in anger. You think he was stupid for not magically knowing that Palpatine was going to use lightning from his fingers? As for Anakin . . . yeah, Anakin was dumb.

1. He threw his lightning into the sky and there was a chain reaction.. I don't think he was controlling it the entire time. As for his destruction by Reys sabers.. Well I don't know what to say.. It did not really bother me. I prefer it to him losing in a lightsaber duel and I figure there has to be something to the statement of "I am all the Jedi" So maybe things just went south for the Emperor and he didnt have as much control as he thought.

2. No I was saying it was why Rey could stand up to the Emperor and defeat him. That she was not better then Luke.. I was not responding to you directly.. I dont think Just to all the previous post.

3. Again.. Prefer to a lightsaber duel. Maybe she just figured if one could stop it then two could do even more damage.

4. I was kind of Joking but Luke should have expected a response. Throwing away your only weapon meant certain death and thus the possible death of everyone. I guess he was just holding out hope that his father would help him.

I think the fact that Palps showed no signs of pain is what can allow a fan to believe that he may have been using lightning with full control just to convince Anakin to help. Seeing him give his "UNLIMITED POWER" line, and then pop back up as if he was perfectly fine all makes it seem that he was in control, and not actually putting himself in danger of being killed.

Like Bravomite stated, there's enough ambiguity to allow viewers to interpret that scene a number of different ways. I have my fair share of problems with the entire Mace sequence, but Palpatine comes across as in control and scheming rather than stupidly allowing himself to be destroyed.

Well I'll see your Ambiguity in ROTS and raise you one Ambiguity in TROS

And another bit of evidence to support the idea that Palps was controlling the lightning with Mace is that Kenobi blocking Dooku's lightning with his saber didn't reflect it back, but merely absorbed and dissipated it. So, either Mace was doing something different and Palps was allowing it to happen, or Palps was doing all of it for show.

In all actuality i always assumed the Emperor was in control of it.. I mean other then Mace seemed to be so calm and know what he was doing..

I still hate it that that is how he ended up looking like he does.

That to me is one of the dumber things in TROS.. Why does he go back to looking like that after he sucks up the force from the Ben and Rey.. He is in a Clone Body.. He should look pretty fresh.

 

[JAWS]

After thinking about that fan made clip with all the Jedi appearing to help destroy Palpatine I no longer like the idea and am glad it didn't play out that way in the movie. The people that such a scene seems to cater to are those who simply don't like Rey and would rather she be minimized in the finale of her own trilogy. And if you don't like the main character of an entire trilogy then just having some spirits of characters you do like appear at the last second isn't gonna fix anything for you anyway.

Imagine applying that same logic to the OT. Palpatine is frying Luke, Luke is pleading for his father's help, Vader obliges and picks up the Emperor but then as he's carrying him toward the railing you see the spirits of Yoda and Ben appear to walk alongside Vader helping him carry Palps to the edge and then all three of them shove him over the side, lol.

No, the only way stuff like that works is if it's a quick assist that doesn't do *everything* for the main hero. Like Valeria briefly appearing next to Conan to deflect a single attack so that he can regather himself and finish the job *by himself.* Which is basically what the Jedi did by helping her stand when she called to them and helping to amplify the reflected lightning back at Palps. George himself actually did consider having Yoda and/or Ben appear visually to help Luke face the Emperor in ROTJ and wisely decided against it for assumedly the same reason as JJ.

I have no issue with it because its what is being suggested anyways IMO when she says "I am all the Jedi"

It would have just been a visual representation of what was going on. It really would have brought the series full circle.

I also dont have an issue with them showing up as early as they did in the fan Edit.. It almost comes across that only Rey knows they are there and Palps cant see them.. Granted thats because nothing was there or suppose to be there. But I would have been fine with that cut..

I agree I would have rather had Old Anakin and not young Anakin.

 

[JAWS]

Not sure what you're suggesting that Yoda and Obi-Wan expected from Luke. If you're saying that they expected something other than Anakin returning to the light to help his son, then I'm inclined to disagree.

Yoda taught that Jedi *never* use the Force for attack. That makes it hard for me to believe that he sent Luke to confront Vader knowing that "confront" would mean attack. I prefer to interpret things as Yoda and Obi-Wan sorta foreseeing that Anakin would return to the light, and either Luke or Leia would be the catalyst. Not to kill him, but to appeal to his paternal/family heart.

I know that's just my own subjective take on it, but it's what lines up best logically when I consider context from all three OT movies, and even the PT Anakin story.

I dont think Obi wan Foresaw anything...

"He's more machine now the Human.. Twisted and Evil"

"I cant do it Ben. I cant kill my own Father."

"Then the Emperor has already won.. You were out last hope"


And if you add in the PT then Yoda sent Obi Wan to Kill Anakin and Yoda went to kill the Emperor. Or do we think Yoda went to reason with him

Obi Wan kinda tried to to reason with Anakin a little I guess. Probably would have been better off letting Padme try to bring him back for a bit longer before he decided to strike the Superman pose.

This "the Jedi use the force for self defense never for attack" was kinda blown apart in the PT. Didnt Obi Wan turn his saber in first even? Basically challenging Anakin? Is that self defense? Or is it meant Defense of the what is right?


Obi Wan did do the most Gangsta **** in the whole Saga though.. Left his unarmed/helpless/defeated friend to die a pretty horrific death.. That is just cold.

 

[JAWS]

Ha ha, I haven't been posting as much lately due to a combination of more stuff going on in real life and the fact that I may have said about all I can say about SW at this point, including TROS, lol.

I agree... But I came back because no new movies are coming out..

 

[ajp4mgs]

. . . and the fact that I may have said about all I can say about SW at this point, including TROS, lol.

Say it ain't so, Khev. We're Star Wars fans; we can endlessly say the same things over and over again and never tire of it. Snap out of it, man!

In all honesty I don't think Ben and Yoda had a clue what even THEY expected from Luke, lol.

Their gameplan in ROTJ seemed to basically go like this:

1. Guilt Luke into leaving Dagobah to kill his own father.

2. ???????????

3. Victory

lol

That's why I prefer to interpret Yoda (more than Obi-Wan - who seemed rather clueless after PT context ) guiding Luke only to be able to defend himself. Yoda's training on Dagobah had nothing to do with being a better fighter. Not once (aside from unused footage) did Yoda train Luke with a lightsaber. Instead, he trained Luke's mind to resist being turned to the dark side. Yoda trained Luke to be better able to mentally withstand what could be coming his way. Yoda's teaching didn't seem geared toward training the guy to kill Vader.

And remember, Vader was only the #2. No victory and no peace could be had while the Emperor lived. And who could take down the most powerful Sith ever? Not Yoda - he proved that. Not Kenobi - no chance. Not Luke - he would get pummeled. The answer was always Anakin. The Chosen One.

So the whole saga makes more sense to me if Luke and Leia were the only hope for peace because Vader/Anakin was actually the only hope to defeat the Emperor. Luke was being trained to survive, and to resist turning to the dark side like his father. Once he was ready, he was sent to Vader with fingers crossed that Anakin returns to the light for his family. Yoda was always seeing visions of the future, so it's not a major leap for me to assume he could've been counting on one where Anakin returns to being good when he needs to protect his child.

Is that my own revisionist history of Lucas' screenplay intent? Probably. But he himself has re-contextualized so much of the OT to fit with the larger post-PT saga narrative that I might as well beat him to the punch on this one.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I dont think Obi wan Foresaw anything...

"He's more machine now the Human.. Twisted and Evil"

"I cant do it Ben. I cant kill my own Father."

"Then the Emperor has already won.. You were out last hope"

I just tell myself that Kenobi was saying what Luke needed to hear in order to keep his guard up to the highest levels and be prepared for anything. Can't have Luke depending on his dad to turn if it doesn't actually happen. Obi-Wan was always telling Luke half truths and being "misleading" in order to get his head where it needed to be. Revealing the ultimate truth only later.

Look, there's no way that killing Vader would win the war against the Empire. Palpatine was the head of the snake; Vader was an enforcer. If Yoda and Obi-Wan pinned their hopes on Luke being a Sith slayer, they would've trained him more for combat, and they would've sent him after the Emperor. Not focus entirely on Vader (his father).

Luke and Leia were the last two people in the galaxy that could bring Anakin back. And Anakin/Vader was the last person who could actually defeat the Emperor. So that's how I see the mission Yoda and Obi-Wan took with Luke. And if Luke failed, then Leia. Otherwise, it's like Khev said: the ultimate strategy makes no sense. It worked fine for me as a kid, but I haven't been a kid for a while. I need a better interpretation than "you must kill Vader - forget what I said about a Jedi never uses the Force for attack."

And if you add in the PT then Yoda sent Obi Wan to Kill Anakin and Yoda went to kill the Emperor. Or do we think Yoda went to reason with him

Obi Wan kinda tried to to reason with Anakin a little I guess. Probably would have been better off letting Padme try to bring him back for a bit longer before he decided to strike the Superman pose.

This "the Jedi use the force for self defense never for attack" was kinda blown apart in the PT. Didnt Obi Wan turn his saber in first even? Basically challenging Anakin? Is that self defense? Or is it meant Defense of the what is right?

Oh there's no doubt that the PT totally redefined what a Jedi was, and was a total 180 from what Yoda described in ESB. But I think that was the point (at least I *hope* it was): that the Jedi had lost their way in the prequels, and Yoda and Kenobi were supposed to have learned from that during the OT so that future Jedi could return to how they used to be pre-PT. So they could once again be what Obi-Wan described to Luke in ANH, and Yoda described in ESB.

Jedi aren't soldiers; they aren't assassins; they aren't enforcers. The Jedi, as described in the OT (the only trilogy that really matters ) were guardians of peace and justice. They were supposed to be like monks who can kick serious ass with help from lightsabers and magic. They use their ass-kicking when provoked, and leave the winning of wars to the soldiers and warriors on the side of good (like the Rebellion).

They were manipulated into getting directly involved in the clone wars, and their Order was corrupted. But by the time Luke was trained, he'd be the first of a new line like what Jedi were intended to be. There's no way to come out of watching the OT believing that Jedi were supposed to act like they did in the PT.

 

[jye4ever]

Look, there's no way that killing Vader would win the war against the Empire. Palpatine was the head of the snake; Vader was an enforcer. If Yoda and Obi-Wan pinned their hopes on Luke being a Sith slayer, they would've trained him more for combat, and they would've sent him after the Emperor. Not focus entirely on Vader (his father).

Umm Mr ajp sir Luke DID kill Vader and resurrected Anakin Skywalker and Anakin Skywalker NOT VADER killed the head of the snake.

So yes killing Vader did result in winning the war.

Luke resurrected Anakin.

Anakin grandson resurrected Rey.

Rey becomes Skywalker.

Khev inherits the earth


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[The Buffinator]

So the whole saga makes more sense to me if Luke and Leia were the only hope for peace because Vader/Anakin was actually the only hope to defeat the Emperor. Luke was being trained to survive, and to resist turning to the dark side like his father. Once he was ready, he was sent to Vader with fingers crossed that Anakin returns to the light for his family. Yoda was always seeing visions of the future, so it's not a major leap for me to assume he could've been counting on one where Anakin returns to being good when he needs to protect his child.

Then TROS should be quite satisfying for you, as Luke & Leia were instrumental in Rey's finishing the job once and for all. Leia trained her (with Luke contributing a couple of lessons in TLJ), while Luke prevented her from throwing away her lightsaber and provided her his X-Wing to reach Exegol. Plus Anakin's grandson Ben mirrored his redemption/sacrifice arc and played a key role as well. The circle is now complete. Hakuna matata. Oh, wait - that's a different circle.

 

[Prime Clone]

 

[JAWS]

View attachment 489691

 

[JAWS]

Umm Mr ajp sir Luke DID kill Vader and resurrected Anakin Skywalker and Anakin Skywalker NOT VADER killed the head of the snake.

So yes killing Vader did result in winning the war.

Luke resurrected Anakin.

Anakin grandson resurrected Rey.

Rey becomes Skywalker.

Khev inherits the earth


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Say it ain't so, Khev. We're Star Wars fans; we can endlessly say the same things over and over again and never tire of it. Snap out of it, man!







That's why I prefer to interpret Yoda (more than Obi-Wan - who seemed rather clueless after PT context ) guiding Luke only to be able to defend himself. Yoda's training on Dagobah had nothing to do with being a better fighter. Not once (aside from unused footage) did Yoda train Luke with a lightsaber. Instead, he trained Luke's mind to resist being turned to the dark side. Yoda trained Luke to be better able to mentally withstand what could be coming his way. Yoda's teaching didn't seem geared toward training the guy to kill Vader.

And remember, Vader was only the #2. No victory and no peace could be had while the Emperor lived. And who could take down the most powerful Sith ever? Not Yoda - he proved that. Not Kenobi - no chance. Not Luke - he would get pummeled. The answer was always Anakin. The Chosen One.

So the whole saga makes more sense to me if Luke and Leia were the only hope for peace because Vader/Anakin was actually the only hope to defeat the Emperor. Luke was being trained to survive, and to resist turning to the dark side like his father. Once he was ready, he was sent to Vader with fingers crossed that Anakin returns to the light for his family. Yoda was always seeing visions of the future, so it's not a major leap for me to assume he could've been counting on one where Anakin returns to being good when he needs to protect his child.

Is that my own revisionist history of Lucas' screenplay intent? Probably. But he himself has re-contextualized so much of the OT to fit with the larger post-PT saga narrative that I might as well beat him to the punch on this one.

The only reason we didnt see yoda training luke with a lightsaber was because they used practical effects for yoda and the lightsaber scenes, they were difficult and expensive to film. If george made them today i guarantee you?d see yoda training luke with a lightsaber. I always thought it was implied he taught him especially since he had it with him and yoda said you do not need your weapon when luke entered the cave. I cant imagine how they would have shown puppet yoda swinging a saber without the use of cgi, it has nothing to do with these story elements your imagining. Its good read but it was simply a limitation of filming at the time there is no hidden meaning to it.

 

[Khev]

The only reason we didnt see yoda training luke with a lightsaber was because they used practical effects for yoda and the lightsaber scenes, they were difficult and expensive to film. If george made them today i guarantee you?d see yoda training luke with a lightsaber. I always thought it was implied he taught him especially since he had it with him and yoda said you do not need your weapon when luke entered the cave. I cant imagine how they would have shown puppet yoda swinging a saber without the use of cgi, it has nothing to do with these story elements your imagining. Its good read but it was simply a limitation of filming at the time there is no hidden meaning to it.

Nope, it had literally nothing to do with filmmaking limitations. Yoda becoming a twirling lightsaber dervish was one of the most idiotic PT retcons of the entire Saga.

From "The Making of Return of the Jedi" by J.W. Rinzler. Lucas, Kasdan, and Marquand discuss the nature of the Force and those who wield it while developing the story for ROTJ:

Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?

Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.

Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?

Lucas: It's just the Jedi who take the time to do it.

Marquand: They use it as a technique.

Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate. Also another misconception is that Yoda teaches Jedi, but he is like a guru; he doesn't go out and fight anybody.

Kasdan: A Jedi Master is a Jedi isn't he?

Lucas: Well, he is a teacher, not a real Jedi. Understand that?

Kasdan: I understand what you're saying, but I can't believe it; I am in shock.

Lucas: It's true, absolutely true, not that it makes any difference to the story.

Kasdan: You mean he wouldn't be any good in a fight?

Lucas: Not with Darth Vader he wouldn't.

Kasdan: I accept it, but I don't like it.

I'm so glad that the ST moved the thematic nature of the Force and those who can wield it to be more in line with the OT than the PT.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Forgive me but i dont see what you posted has anything to due with filming limitations with special effects at the time the ot was made. I undertand his intention was anyone can learn the force but what does that have to do with yoda teaching luke lightsaber skills

 

[Khev]

Forgive me but i dont see what you posted has anything to due with filming limitations with special effects at the time the ot was made.

That's because Yoda's skills HAD nothing to do with "filming limitations with special effects at the time the ot was made." That was your incorrect supposition.

Lucas literally stated point blank that Yoda never fights anybody and that he wouldn't be any good if he did.

There are deleted scenes from ESB where Luke is swinging his lightsaber while Yoda is on his back because that was all Yoda was ever supposed to do with regard to combat: instruct. Not demonstrate. Not fight.