Star Wars: The Acolyte

[Mandible]

Then don’t . Nobody is forced to engage with it.

Plenty of good superhero content outside of the MCU and DCEU right now (Invincible, The Boys, Umbrella Academy, X-Men 97).

I’ve stopped watching most MCU stuff. I haven’t seen Black Panther 2, The Marvels, Quantumania, Werewolf by Night and probably others I’m forgetting even exist. And I wont be watching them or Captain America, Agatha, Iron Heart, Thunderbolts, eyc.

After Deadpool there’s nothing on my radar.

I used to keep watching everything out of some sense of obligation, I stopped and I’m glad I did. You’d probably be a lot happier if you did the same.

Why? It’s the same people working on it as season 1.

True. True.

Deadpool, is the "last hope" for the MCU.

I know I shouldn't be worried about Andor, but then again I thought they had Mandalorian on a reasonable path with S1&2, then the same show runners just annihilated S3 into utter garbage.

I said it in another thread, but even Lucas said at Canne, they've got no idea what made SW so good in the first place.

 

[Wor-Gar]

they've got no idea what made SW so good in the first place.

THIS!

There's a Star Wars marathon on right now... and the PT just looks like a cartoon to me. ANH still takes me back to a time most here can't imagine, so it is an unfair comparison... but it was just so innovative in its day.

There is a serious lack of innovation in Hollywood. The reliance on old franchises makes it clear; the constant rebooting of material every few years demonstrates that Hollywood is not run by people who love movies anymore.

 

[chrisstbh]

True. True.

Deadpool, is the "last hope" for the MCU.

I know I shouldn't be worried about Andor, but then again I thought they had Mandalorian on a reasonable path with S1&2, then the same show runners just annihilated S3 into utter garbage.

I said it in another thread, but even Lucas said at Canne, they've got no idea what made SW so good in the first place.

Mandos biggest sin was becoming a cameo machine.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Grogu killed Mando.

Just like the Ewoks and Jar Jar before him.

 

[Mandible]

I mean they're really not..? There are individuasls and groups in every fanbase that fall into those categories and do give that kind of abuse to people involved in projects.

Yeah, but this is the problem with the world - period...

...blanket statements. It's like when people say all democrats are bad, or all republicans are bad, or all Muslims are terrorists, or all LBGT people are activists. It's just ridiculous and juvenile to smear an entire group of people over a minority of bad seeds. There's good and bad people in every single demographic.

So when Hollywood (or companies, or anyone) get on their horse and say those sorts of blankets statements all it does is alienate their customer base, and make people feel uncomfortable -regardless if you are warranted to be called that or not.

I can't remember a time in my lifetime where it's the norm for companies to attack their customers for (the most part) for not liking their products - and Hollywood is by far the worst. But I think it comes from fear, because they know they are failing.

I loved the first 5 seasons of Game of Thrones, but once they were off book, it fell in a heap. But I still really respect the show runners because after it has finished and there was a backlash to how mediocre the ending was, they came out and owned it - acknowledging that they ran out go gas, that they were off book, and that it wasn't as good as the rest. So just for that, I will always give them my time and money. But to point the finger of blame everywhere else is not the right way to handle it.

 

[Mandible]

THIS!

There's a Star Wars marathon on right now... and the PT just looks like a cartoon to me. ANH still takes me back to a time most here can't imagine, so it is an unfair comparison... but it was just so innovative in its day.

There is a serious lack of innovation in Hollywood. The reliance on old franchises makes it clear; the constant rebooting of material every few years demonstrates that Hollywood is not run by people who love movies anymore.

Go watch the Jim Henson Idea Man doco - that will make you sad. Talk about an incredible time of innovation, creativity and excitement... the 60's to 2000 was insane. Since then art has been a slow cut of a thousand deaths

 

[Sassafras]

You know, it is possible for groups of people to exist that don't have a single white guy, even in white majority countries or even in space when there's more than 1 species? Or are you saying white guys are too important and prevalent in the universe to never not be seen at all times?

Considering people love to complain about wokeness, they sure do like complaining about their representation not existing at all times...almost as if being represented on screen matters or something

For sure. And if this were Wakanda it'd be one thing. Dunno about "representation" coz I'm happy to have SLJ, for instance, as Nick Fury even tho I'm not black....

But don't decide to turn an already established universe with an existing healthy mix into force feeding. Or, a filmmaker can, but it's a dubious proposition. Tom Cruise barely pulled off playing Jack Reacher coz any book fan knew what the character was supposed to look like. Rings of Power isn't blowing anyone away by checking boxes. All those women in slave Leia cosplay sure don't look depressed about their "lack of female representation".

And outside of the Solo droid weirdness since when who is doing the sheets with who, a thing in SW publicity? Just get on with the job for &%* sake.

 

[Mandible]

Same reaction I'd have if Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was cast with a bunch of Caucasians.

Interesting one to bring up - and a perfect example.

I wouldn't want to watch any early John Woo, Bruce Lee, Jet Li, Donnie Yen, etc movies recast with white people. The love for them comes from the wonderment and admiration of a different culture.

Growing up my favorite actor by a long shot was Eddie Murphy... but I would never care to see Beverly Hills Cop recast with some lame-ass white dude.

As a kid I never judged (and still don't) people by their race (religion, who they sleep with, or anything else), I always judged them by their actions. I just saw someone cool, doing something amazing with their lives.

And I'm more than happy not to see myself represented in anything - that's why I watch movies, read books, play games - to see and experience different things, different ways of life, different opinions, different cultures, etc experiences that transport me beyond the mundane that surrounds me everyday - and maybe, just maybe learn something new beyond my own little narrow tunnel vision.

 

[Dave_W]

For sure. And if this were Wakanda it'd be one thing. Dunno about "representation" coz I'm happy to have SLJ, for instance, as Nick Fury even tho I'm not black....

But don't decide to turn an already established universe with an existing healthy mix into force feeding. Or, a filmmaker can, but it's a dubious proposition. Tom Cruise barely pulled off playing Jack Reacher coz any book fan knew what the character was supposed to look like. Rings of Power isn't blowing anyone away by checking boxes. All those women in slave Leia cosplay sure don't look depressed about their "lack of female representation".

And outside of the Solo droid weirdness since when who is doing the sheets with who, a thing in SW publicity? Just get on with the job for &%* sake.

There's a pretty healthy mix right here...

Men, women, kids, white, black, asian. Some will have alien make-up on, some don't.But because 1 specific demographic isn't there, the 'forced inclusion is bad' crowd are suddenly woke and want to see themselves deliberately put into the cast.

Talk about pushing an agenda.

 

[jaztermareal]

There's a pretty healthy mix right here...

Men, women, kids, white, black, asian. Some will have alien make-up on, some don't.But because 1 specific demographic isn't there, the 'forced inclusion is bad' crowd are suddenly woke and want to see themselves deliberately put into the cast.

Talk about pushing an agenda.

Ikust woke up so forgive if i am a little incoherant.

I think the issue that some have noticed isn't the individual lineup but a pattern.


If a woman has been repeatedly cheated on by her spouse and one day he comes home late saying he finished work 8pm that day but his office left a voicemail saying he would need to stay till 6pm.

It could be seen as overly paranoid to assume cheating, friends might say she is being overly sensitive and jumping to conclusions and assuming the worst not considering that there may be plenty innocent explanations, but for the wife it is a massive red flag as she has many memories of similar things in the past.


The context of current era social politics, comapnies instituting quotas etc applies, people who are sick of companies using diversity/checkbox ticking to mask poor quality or companies who institute it at the cost of talent see this lineup and assume the worst.


Personally I don't care so much about the demographics of the cast (I never cared thar fresh prince was all black for example) so long as the cast can act and the writing is good. I personally think that casting of certain demographics only becomes a problem in historical movies and shows (I don't think a woman of colour should play Abraham Lincoln or a white dude play Shaka Zulu/Bruce Lee. In fictional worlds there is more freedom depending on the lore (some fictional stories may take place in locations/times/scenarios that restrict casting options. A movie where a predator lands on earth to hunt native American tribe can't feature a bunch of different ethnicities in the tribe. Fallout show kinda had this issue where Vault 33 almost everyone was supposed to be related due a couple hundred years of interbreeding with only occasional transfers drom vault 31 yet when you look at the people in 33 they are all different colours aomehow, as if they had been completely unrelated and thrown into the vault only a day before.


I see no issue in the Acolyte having a diverse cast (so long as they can act. The choices made do give off a CW show vibe so I do have concern that the level of talent and gravitas may be low but that remains ro be seen) but folk may look at the cast and simply see it as yet another box ticking exercise that comes at expense of quality driven by current year politics. So like the wife of a cheater, they see this one example as yet another example of the sin despite it, in isolation, perhaps being completely organic and innocent. It is the pattern that matters, and it is the pattern that pushes good normal people to become annoyed or suspicious of a single picture of a cast in a tv show.

 

[Mandible]

There's a pretty healthy mix right here...

Men, women, kids, white, black, asian. Some will have alien make-up on, some don't.But because 1 specific demographic isn't there, the 'forced inclusion is bad' crowd are suddenly woke and want to see themselves deliberately put into the cast.

Talk about pushing an agenda.

So are you saying Asian countries are not as inclusive or evolved as Western countries because they don't have the same level of representation in their movies, tv, etc? Would you even dare admit that as fact?

The majority of their populations; Japan, South Korea, China, etc are predominantly Asian populated and therefore the majority of their roles are filled with Asian actors. Is that a bad thing?

Is the West on some higher level of understanding and awareness that it is so much better than Asian countries? Of course not.

Yet according to The United States Census Bureau, on July 1st 2023, The United States consisted of 75.5% "white only" so why is it so bad to have more than one "white male" as part of your 12 cast? Two maybe? Is three completely offensive? There's three "white women," so even one extra guy is too unbalanced?

Or could it just be that the pendulum (that no doubt needed to swing) has swung too far the other way - because that above doesn't look like a healthy mix at all.

 

[Dave_W]

Eastern culture is different to western, I don't care about it, let them do things their way and handle things how they see fit. It's up to them how they handle inclusion.

Why does a film or tv have to represent the proportionality of a country? Its fiction, who cares if it isn't 75% white. It's not a historical drama so what does it matter? It's set in space with aliens for christ sake.

 

[chrisstbh]

So, if this cast is anything to go by, at face value, are we to assume by the time of the PT all these other character lines died out to be replaced by a bunch of white guys? (Which didn't happen in the PT anyway). It doesn't compute, continuity-wise. Same reaction I'd have if Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was cast with a bunch of Caucasians.

What are you even talking about . Lucas only cast mostly white guys so Star Wars can only be mostly white guys? Really?

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is set in CHINA. Star Wars is set in an entire Galaxy.

Are they only allowed one token black guy per trilogy?

 

[Dave_W]

Suddenly the anti woke warriors are a bunch of woke snowflakes demanding representation and pushing their agenda.

It's like poetry, it rhymes.

 

[Mandible]

Eastern culture is different to western, I don't care about it, let them do things their way and handle things how they see fit. It's up to them how they handle inclusion.

Why does a film or tv have to represent the proportionality of a country? Its fiction, who cares if it isn't 75% white. It's not a historical drama so what does it matter? It's set in space with aliens for christ sake.

And yet, there's plenty of race swapping in historical dramas that has been happening over the past few years... but that's okay isn't it? Historical dramas need representation too!

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but you can't have it both ways. Look at the Oscars, amazing films of the past wouldn't even pass their criteria now - which is ridiculous.

In certain countries, within their film industry government body funding, you now need to have a "diversity consultant" as part of your crew or they will not give you the funds. So even if you did want to do an historically accurate piece, you have to still have a certain level of DEI or the film doesn't go ahead.

If the story doesn't call for it, don't shove it in. Write a story that embraces and celebrates DEI, but also allow stories that have no need for DEI to exist.

 

[Dave_W]

And yet, there's plenty of race swapping in historical dramas that has been happening over the past few years... but that's okay isn't it? Historical dramas need representation too!

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but you can't have it both ways. Look at the Oscars, amazing films of the past wouldn't even pass their criteria now - which is ridiculous.

In certain countries, within their film industry government body funding, you now need to have a "diversity consultant" as part of your crew or they will not give you the funds. So even if you did want to do an historically accurate piece, you have to still have a certain level of DEI or the film doesn't go ahead.

If the story doesn't call for it, don't shove it in. Write a story that embraces and celebrates DEI, but also allow stories that have no need for DEI to exist.

Diversity in historical dramas is stupid, unless it's accurate. But this is sci-fi, so the outrage of the exclusion of the master race is unwarranted.

 

[chrisstbh]

And yet, there's plenty of race swapping in historical dramas that has been happening over the past few years... but that's okay isn't it? Historical dramas need representation too!

No, it's not and it was appropriately called out. Jada Pinkett Smith's Cleopatra was torn apart by critics and viewers alike and bombed.

Just because someone made it doesn't mean it was accepted.

If you can't suspend your disbelief for Asian and Black people in a sci-fi galaxy then maybe these labels everyone is throwing around may apply.

 

[ZE_501]

I said this years ago on these very boards (because this conversation won't go away) ... the OT was made in a time and place where mainstream entertainment had a lot of white people in it. Their casting choices were based on societal norms for the time period, not on 'what the galaxy far far away' was supposed to look like.

It's 2024 and societal norms are in the midst of massive change. Whether it's an over-correction or whether or not one likes it isn't relevant in the sense that casting for contemporary Star Wars simply mirrors the OT in that it's based on the contemporary 'normal'.

And it being fantasy space opera set in a massive galaxy allows for a multi-ethnic look.

Don't get me wrong, I think that Disney in general is a soul-less machine pandering to various demographics not out of morality but a profit motive, but if 2024 Star Wars looks different from 1977 Star Wars I don't see it as an issue.

My big issue is that 2024 Star Wars tends to be poorly written and executed.

 

[TheClient]

but folk may look at the cast and simply see it as yet another box ticking exercise that comes at expense of quality driven by current year politics.

I am zeroing in on this part right here because I think this quote is at the root of my misunderstanding.

How does this cast come at the expense of quality? Even as a knee-jerk irrational concern, I do not understand the connection. The story will be the story, no matter who was cast or their backgrounds.

If Rey had been switched to a male character, that would not suddenly make JJ Abrams a better writer. If Reva had been white, the OWK show would still be complete and utter trash.

To assume that a lack of white men telegraphs a worse story is to imply that more white men would have improved these things, which is bonkers to me! They would remain the same disappointing stories.

 

[Mandible]

If you can't suspend your disbelief for Asian and Black people in a sci-fi galaxy then maybe these labels everyone is throwing around may apply.

At what point did I say this? Clearly you didn't read my comments as they are written, only as they way you wanted to hear them.

Please point out exactly where I said that or even implied that.

Holy cow - what a world we live in...