Who had the upper hand, Mace or Palpatine?

[bumblebee]

Who does block that Luke deathly lightsaber blow on the second Death Star?

huh whats that have to do with a Sith trusting someone???

 

[lerath666]

I think you're right the more i think aout it anzik. It's not that he trusted Vader, he just knew what he would do. Makes sense.

 

[bumblebee]

In the Novel "Rise of Darth Vader" (I know its EU) Its says how Sidous didnt trust vader and how he would never give him a chance to kill him in his sleep as he had done to his master.

 

[Outer_Rim]

Thats more of an accurate prediction than trust.

Ok, but that means Anakin entering Palpy´s office in the right moment could be also an accurate prediction. Doesn´t it?

 

[lerath666]

still dosen't change the fact that he was right. he had a second sabre, if anakin had not shown up, according to nick Gallard, he would have torn Mace a new one. I'm going to go with what Nick Gallard says.

 

[bumblebee]

still dosen't change the fact that he was right. he had a second sabre, if anakin had not shown up, according to nick Gallard, he would have torn Mace a new one. I'm going to go with what Nick Gallard says.

Are we sure he had that saber on him cause his original came from that little statue he had in his office and it mentions how he got it right before the Jedis showed up.

 

[Outer_Rim]

Are we sure he had that saber on him cause his original came from that little statue he had in his office and it mentions how he got it right before the Jedis showed up.

We will never know, but considering Gillard also said he is ambydextrous, it will not be a surprise that Palpatine had his second lightsaber up his left sleeve.

 

[bidge1000]

A lightsaber technique that only exists in the EU. Mace does not use Vaapad in the movie. Anyway, look what Nick Gillard said about Palpatine when he was asked about Palpy´s fighting style in a Hyperspace chat time ago:

Palpatine is the master of every weapon and style. You are a fool if you think you can beat him.

You can not beat Palpatine because even if you think you got the better of him, he is able to adapt and use your advantage against you. No matter how good you are, he have all the aces up his sleeve and he will be the last man standing in the end.

The only one that can beat him is Anakin. Palpatine trusts him so much that he will never foresee Anakin´s betrayal. And of course, because it is his destiny.

ok,
let's keep this in context here. I understand that you love Palpatine and your worship of your hero includes coming to his defence. But facts are facts, Mace had him beaten. If you say that form 7 is only applicable to EU then that's fine. In that case we can chuck Nick Gillards comments out as irrelevant as well. What we saw on screen was Mace disarming and defeating Palpatine. He was about to strike the death blow when Anakin stepped in. Facts is facts.

D:chew

 

[Prime Clone]

Yoda and Sidious were fairly evenly matched, and I've always considered Mace to be roughly equivalent to Yoda in power (with Mace's size and swordsmanship compensating for any lack of Force powers).

Maybe I should have included a third option: It was a stalemate, in which only Anakin could decide the outcome.

 

[shocktrooper_au]

ok,
let's keep this in context here. I understand that you love Palpatine and your worship of your hero includes coming to his defence. But facts are facts, Mace had him beaten. If you say that form 7 is only applicable to EU then that's fine. In that case we can chuck Nick Gillards comments out as irrelevant as well. What we saw on screen was Mace disarming and defeating Palpatine. He was about to strike the death blow when Anakin stepped in. Facts is facts.

D:chew

Then Palps has fooled you too.... Your only comeback for this argument is to proclaim Sith love from your opposition. At the end of the day this is whats great about SW, that so much can be interpreted by the fan. IMO to think Mace was in a winning position is to ignore the first hour of storyline in ROTS to set up the fall of Anakin from this fight scene. LOL....

 

[Shai]

I want Shai's opinion on this!

Better pic, and here is a quote from Shai

''SOME OF YOU HAVE SUMMONED ME TO THIS MEDIOCRE THREAD....''

I think its all Lucas s'fault..If he had done a better job with that scene we wouldnt be so confuse.The guy has a small p-nis obviously....



Ahhh..... and thread rated....

 

[Darth Caedus]

I think its all Lucas s'fault..If he had done a better job with that scene we wouldnt be so confuse.The guy has a small p-nis obviously....

Well that is surely true

Palpatine's lightning sent back at him by Mace Windu.One possibility was that his own lightning simply scarred and melted his face, in the same way that electricity in the real world damages anything it hits. Though most of the circumstances behind Palpatine's duel with Windu and the other Jedi Masters were not publicly revealed, he did garner sympathy in the Senate by claiming that he had been disfigured when the Jedi attacked him, a claim that was truthful, from a certain point of view. Until the release of Dark Nest III: The Swarm War, in which it is revealed that pushing one's limits in the Force can cause physical deformities as it did to Luke Skywalker in a non-extreme, non-permanent way, no other Human hit by Force lightning was physically deformed in the Star Wars movies or in the Expanded Universe.

"He looks like a walking corpse… Like a mummified body dead a thousand years. Amazing he is still alive, much less the most powerful man in the galaxy. He isn't even that old; it is more as if something is slowly eating him."
―Prince Xizor's thoughts on Palpatine in 3 ABY[src]

Another theory is that Sidious's deformed appearance was his true face, which had been gradually deformed due to the immense dark energies he wielded (a process that has happened to other devotees of the dark side, though to a lesser extent), and that prior to his fight with Windu he had been using some kind of Sith or other technique (like Force Concealment) in order to cloak his true form and appear normal to others. He may also have had cosmetic surgery which "corrected" his real face, like Seti Ashgad did, who looked many years younger than he actually was. According to this theory, he dropped the disguise either because he wanted to look injured and weak to Anakin (and in turn to the Senate, earning the sympathy of many), or because he lost concentration while fighting Windu. It is also possible that it would take too much energy to continue to maintain it, or just because the lightning literally melted the mask away, and he kept this look in order to frame the Jedi for deforming him. The short story Sithisis supports this theory, depicting Sidious literally masking his face with a Sith ritual, though it could be argued that his true face in the comic does not appear as deformed as it does after his fight with Windu. Sithisis could possibly explain Palpatine's younger and healthier appearance in Revenge of the Sith when compared to Attack of the Clones. Further, in The Unifying Force, Luke Skywalker muses that Palpatine had been "prematurely wizened by years of calling on dark power."

It is most likely, though, that both theories are partially true. It makes sense that some of Palpatine's deformities (presumably those that seem characteristic of concentrated burn wounds, such as melted skin and facial indentations) were caused by the lightning itself, while other supposed deformities (presumably those that couldn't possibly be caused by lightning and are known to have been the side effects of intense Force—and particularly dark side—use, such as pale and wrinkled skin, raw eye sockets, yellow eyes, bad teeth and elongated, blackened fingernails) were aspects of Palpatine's true appearance being revealed. Moreover, Sidious's hands (and presumably his entire body) remained unchanged after the disfiguration of his face. The next time he was seen though, he had pale, swollen hands with long, black fingernails. Star Wars: The Complete Visual Dictionary appears to support the Force mask theory and provides another canonical source, making it very likely that the theory is true.

There has been an attempt to reconcile these theories and provide a definitive and cohesive answer. On the website for the official Star Wars Roleplaying Game, published by Wizards of the Coast, "Jedi Counseling" representative Gary M. Sarli was asked what exactly happened to Palpatine's face, given a choice between the scarring theory and the disguise theory. In answering this, Sarli first discussed the flaws in both these theories, using logic that complemented the questions many fans have had about them:

"There are problems with both these ideas: The idea that he was physically damaged by the Force lightning doesn't match Return of the Jedi. Luke was being hit by Force lightning for some time, and he wasn't scarred like that. On the other hand, if Palpatine was using an Illusion-assisted Disguised check… he couldn't possibly keep it up continually. Moreover, Illusion is a mind-influencing Force power. It doesn't work on droids or recordings (in other words, someone might notice that he doesn't look the same in recorded speeches), nor would it work when projecting a holographic image across the galaxy. Finally, one would wonder why he maintained the illusion in his earlier holographic appearances as Darth Sidious. It would seem more prudent to "turn it off" to preserve the Palpatine identity."
―Gary M. Sarli
Rather than side with one or the other theory, Sarli gave this answer:

"Palpatine, who has delved extensively into Sith lore, was using an almost-forgotten technique to hide his true self."
―Gary M. Sarli
The technique Sarli identified was aptly titled "mask," which used Sith alchemical techniques to alter the user's features, either to make them appear more horrific or to conceal them with a fairer appearance. This was considered different from a mundane disguise (which was temporary) or cosmetic surgery (which needed much more time to use). Instead, this alchemical mask altered the subject at the molecular level, rendering the subject's genuine appearance undetectable by sensors or even by a medical examination. The mask could be dispelled by another dark side power—in Palpatine's case, Force lightning—and should the subject fail to repel the dispelling power, the mask would be dropped and the subject's true face would appear. The sudden transformation would physically distort the subject with dark side energies, making any future attempt to use the "mask" ability, even to create a mundane disguise, far less successful.


Palpatine's disfigured visage.Making use of Sarli's theory, the likely hypothesis is this: Palpatine had for some time been using the near-forgotten "mask" ability to alter his true features to appear as the benevolent middle-aged man he claimed to be. The power kept his true face hidden from both organic and mechanical observers, even under the closest scrutiny, but because it worked at the molecular level, he could not simply "turn it off" at will, requiring the use of the black cloak and hood to hide his face from his co-conspirators, such as the Neimoidians in The Phantom Menace or Grievous in Revenge of the Sith. When confronted and disarmed by Windu, Palpatine resorted to the use of Force lightning, but Windu used his lightsaber to deflect much of the lightning back at Palpatine's face. The power of the lightning was the triggering event that dispelled his "mask," and though even then he may have had the ability to save the "mask," Anakin Skywalker was present to witness the entire exchange, and according to Sarli, Palpatine may have voluntarily failed the save and dropped the mask when it no longer served his purposes—he used the damage both to sway Skywalker into intervening on his side, and to convince the Senate and the Galaxy at large that the Jedi had attempted to murder him. The consequence of this is that Darth Sidious's true face, whatever it was before this point, was distorted into the ruined countenance that would be seen for the remaining Star Wars films.

....Discuss

 

[Anzik]

You guys put way too much thought into this.

 

[Agent0028]

Cool info Caedus.

I kinda lean towards the scarring theory because Palpatine's face seemed puffier at the end of ROTS than ROTJ, so I figured it was because he was freshly deformed. On the other hand he said that Plagueis (I can never remember the correct spelling for that) lived along time ago. Which could be a lie, but I've also heard the theory that Palpatine was just really old and using the Force to keep himself alive. If that is the case than the mask theory makes sense since it is likely old age deformed him. Some combination of the two makes sense to me, and since I'm an EU guy I like the idea that pushing his Force limits caused some deformity too.

I also liked the original idea from before the PT that the Dark side was eating Palpatine away from the inside.

 

[Outer_Rim]

ok,
let's keep this in context here. I understand that you love Palpatine and your worship of your hero includes coming to his defence. But facts are facts, Mace had him beaten. If you say that form 7 is only applicable to EU then that's fine. In that case we can chuck Nick Gillards comments out as irrelevant as well. What we saw on screen was Mace disarming and defeating Palpatine. He was about to strike the death blow when Anakin stepped in. Facts is facts.

D:chew

Sorry, Palpatine is not my favourite character. This has nothing to do with my love for one or another character. Do you want facts? Ok, Lucas has never said a word about Mace defeating Palpatine, at best, he said Mace was winning just when Anakin entered in the office, which in no way mean he won. For example, Maul was winning just before he was sliced in two by Obi-Wan. You can not say Mace won just beacause Palpatine was disarmed. Then, what do think about Yoda being unconscious and at the mercy of Palpatine?

Gillard´s quote is quite relevant and explains what we watch on screen. He means no matter how good you are because while you are fooled by the ilusion of winning, Palpatine has changed tactics and fighting style without you even knowing it. He will be always the winner at the end.

 

[D. Martin]

You folks who vote for Mace are all kidding yourself. Palpatine was only toying with Mace and was only toying with Anakin.

Palpatine > Mace. :emperor

exactly. No way did Windu have the upper hand.

 

[shocktrooper_au]

You can not say Mace won just beacause Palpatine was disarmed.




Exactly what better time for Anakin to walk in and see the Jedi about to kill an urarmed person. They are supposed to be perfect Muhahhahaha :emperor thus all Anakins anti jedi thoughts enter his mind etc

 

[willrulethemall]

Then, what do think about Yoda being unconscious and at the mercy of Palpatine?

If I remember that scene correctly, Yoda wasn't unconscious cause he opened one eye when Palpatine started to approach him.

When Revenge came out, I thought that Mace had Palpatine beaten. But when I started thinking more about it, he was just playing possum. But I still think that a battle between Mace vs Palpatine, Yoda vs Palpatine could have gone either way. It's like chess, one bad move could turn in favor of your opponent.

 

[bidge1000]

Sorry, Palpatine is not my favourite character. This has nothing to do with my love for one or another character. Do you want facts? Ok, Lucas has never said a word about Mace defeating Palpatine, at best, he said Mace was winning just when Anakin entered in the office, which in no way mean he won. For example, Maul was winning just before he was sliced in two by Obi-Wan. You can not say Mace won just beacause Palpatine was disarmed. Then, what do think about Yoda being unconscious and at the mercy of Palpatine?

Gillard´s quote is quite relevant and explains what we watch on screen. He means no matter how good you are because while you are fooled by the ilusion of winning, Palpatine has changed tactics and fighting style without you even knowing it. He will be always the winner at the end.

your arrogance blinds you, (not an insult, a quote from the film, so don't get your knickers in a twist). You said the fact about form 7 was irrelevant as it only appeared in the EU. Fine. If we are only accepting facts directly linked to what we saw on screen and relevant only to that universe, then we cannot take Mr Gillards comments either. He is a real person from planet Earth who has no direct bearing to events happening in that universe. He is a person with an opinion like you and me. Though like you, he is wrong. I now consider this case rested and i'm off to await my pre-order date for the Palpy 1:1 bust.
Rock on everyone with an opinion, right or wrong, it makes the world beautiful....... apart from when you're wrong.

D
:chew:chew:chew:chew:emperor:emperor:emperor

 

[pixletwin]

....then we cannot take Mr Gillards comments either. ...

Your missing the point. The difference between Gilliard and a guy who writes what is essentially glorified fan fiction, is that Gilliard WORKED ON THE FILMS. He was familiar with George's intentions and worked under George to put to life what was ON SCREEN.

In addition I am not too surprised to find that the dumb fans are the majority.