Who had the upper hand, Mace or Palpatine?

[pixletwin]

But in the movie script, Shaak Ti dies--twice! If Lucas had really wanted that scene in there, he could have done it. Oh Lucas, why can't you write a cohesive script?!? Why must you vex us with your shoddy writing and scattered story lines! Oh, it's all in vain! Why can't you all see? Wake up! Senators, you must wake up! Your vision is all distorted! Palpatine lost the duel! Was he more powerful? Yes! But he LOST THE DUEL!!! He would have died, not because of a lack of power, but because Mace was a better swordsman! If Yoda had been in his prime, he would have beaten Sidious! But he was OLD! Mace was powerful enough to best Sidious in combat, even if not more powerful in the Force. The coming of the four Jedi was unexpected, and while he could easily take out the other Jedi, Mace was a whole different story--he had to kill the others quick, because he knew Mace would be the only real threat. Sidious lost, and all his fancy lightning wouldn't have done anything until Anakin came to save him. This was his unexpected salvation. Then he used everything he had to convince Anakin to help, out of fear (he is a Sith after all) of death. He didn't know Anakin would come, and he really was terrified--he was about to die!--and so had to play up his loss and cry martyr, not because he had planned it all along in some massive, all-encompassing plot, but because it was his only possible escape, and he was absolutely desperate--and little orphan Ani bought it! Idiot! As soon as he maimed Windu in his own desperate confusion, Palpatine's exaggerated terror became unnecessary because it had (to Palpatine's relief) worked--Sidious was safe, and Mace, the better swordsman and winner of the duel, had to lose to Sidious' greater control of the Force.

but Mace WON the battle, Palpatine was GOING to die, Anakin came UNEXPECTED and Palpatine MADE UP THE ACT only AT THAT MOMENT because he was DESPERATE, NOT because he had been planning it the whole time, but because he was SCARED OUT OF HIS GOURD and MACE HAD WON the duel, and ONLY DIED because STUPID ANAKIN is a TOTAL MORON who CHOSE to intervene, to the SURPRISE of BOTH Sidious AND Windu.

It's so freaking clear! WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT?!?!?!?!?

Wrong. So wrong.

That post needs to be animated as a Star Wars scroll.

 

[Captain Faramir]

Wrong. So wrong.

That post needs to be animated as a Star Wars scroll.

Then you admit it's worthy enough to be cannon?

 

[lerath666]

if it's so freaking clear, then why is it the guy who designed and choreographed the fight say otherwise?

 

[bumblebee]

if it's so freaking clear, then why is it the guy who designed and choreographed the fight say otherwise?

...um didnt Lucas say in the documentary that mace won?

 

[pixletwin]

...um didnt Lucas say in the documentary that mace won?

Loocas Schmoocas.

 

[Captain Faramir]

Loocas Schmoocas.

Yeah, it's a shame the man is so contradictory he can't even be a credible source in a film he made up himself.

 

[lerath666]

Lucas did not design and choreograph the fight. He script probobly lists the fight as " they fight, mace eventualy disarms palpatine"

Nick Gallard Would be the man who designed and choreographed the fight. You can read his comments on it earlier in the thread.

 

[Anzik]

Nick Gillard's job was to make an exciting fight scene. And honestly, neither actor was particularly convincing as a swordsman. Especially McDiarmid. Great actor, not so coordinated.

 

[Outer_Rim]

Mace, the better swordsman and winner of the duel, had to lose to Sidious' greater control of the Force.

Palpatine is equal to Mace in sword mastery.

Mace WON the battle, Palpatine was GOING to die, Anakin came UNEXPECTED and Palpatine MADE UP THE ACT only AT THAT MOMENT because he was DESPERATE, NOT because he had been planning it the whole time, but because he was SCARED OUT OF HIS GOURD and MACE HAD WON the duel, and ONLY DIED because STUPID ANAKIN is a TOTAL MORON who CHOSE to intervene, to the SURPRISE of BOTH Sidious AND Windu.

It's so freaking clear! WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT?!?!?!?!?[/COLOR]

Anakin was Palpatine´s plan B just in case something goes bad. Mace lost from the beginning. Plan A was kill the Jedi and then turn Anakin, and he would have done it easily if he was not an arrogant fool. Palpatine has been waiting this moment for a long time and he was enjoying every second of this fight. There is a moment in which he got Mace and he let him escape. Then Mace got a lucky shot and he was disarmed, time to change to plan B.

You do know, don't you, if the Jedi destroy me, any chance of saving her will be lost.

-- Palpatine.

Just before the confrontation, Palpatine called Anakin trough the Force to make sure he will come and he showed up in the right moment. Palpatine planned every detail of this duel and there is no way Mace could win.

 

[lerath666]

...um didnt Lucas say in the documentary that mace won?

and what he said was that when anakin walked into the room mace was Winning, not that he had won. you can get very close to victory, and then have it snatched from your grasp.

Which IMHO s what happened to Mace.

 

[Outer_Rim]

and what he said was that when anakin walked into the room mace was Winning, not that he had won. you can get very close to victory, and then have it snatched from your grasp.

Which IMHO s what happened to Mace.

Yeah, ask Maul about it

 

[pixletwin]

and what he said was theat when anakin walked into the room mace was Winning, not that he had won. you can get very close to victory, and then have it snatched from your grasp.

Which IMHO s what happened to Mace.

This is what we know "from the movie":

1) Palpatine had his eye on a new apprentice.

2) Palpatine comes "out of the closet" to Anakin. Surely he knew that, assuming Anakin didni't strike him down then and there, Anakin would run to the Jedi Council with that news.

3) He knew Mace would be coming (he said as much at the begining of that scene).

4) He sensed Anakin was on his way.

5) He fell down pleading with exaustion (obviously faked).

6) He had total 100% trust in Anakin that he would do what he did (stop Mace) and in doing so he would Anakin as his.

7) After Mace was disposed of, he miraculously regains his strength and even seems MORE powerful.

8) Killing Mace and gaining Anakin as his aprentice gave him the leeway he needed to declare Order 66.

Now, knowing all these things and the master manipulator we all agree Palpatine was, isn't it quite obvious that everyone were just pawns put in motion to destroy the jedi and gain control of the Republic?

The catalyst that set all these events in motion was Palpatine revealing who he truly was to Anakin.

This was orchestrated and (I am sorry for all you Mace fans) Mace was a pawn which Palpatine played masterfully and got the exact results he needed.

 

[Randy_S]

But it was in the movie SCRIPT. Not cut because they didn't like it, but it was cut because Liam Neeson's scene was not filmed (and that whole can o worms).

That same script also says that Mace and Palpatine duel, and Mace disarms Palps. No owning of each other, but when all of it is put in context with Palpatine's other machinations, it's overwhelmingly evident that Palpatine owned the entire jedi order.

 

[lerath666]

Wow, george actualy put a bit more than i expected into the script description of the duel.
have a read. it dose put a different spin on the fight.

A close shot of PALPATINE as the fight begins. Close shots of THREE JEDI getting cut down by PALPATINE. PALPATINE and MACE continue to fight.

Jedi Master MACE WINDU and the Sith Lord fight their way down the hallway and into the main office area. PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down.

ANAKIN lands his speeder, jumps out, and runs down a long corridor toward the Chancellor's office.

In the heat of battle, MACE cuts the window behind the Chancellor's desk, and it crashes away. MACE is forced out onto the ledge, which is twenty stories up. They fight over the precipice. ANAKIN arrives to see PALPATINE and MACE fighting.

They stop as MACE forces PALPATINE to drop his sword. PALPATINE and MACE start yelling at each other.

MACE WINDU: You are under arrest, My Lord.

PALPATINE: Anakin! I told you it would come to this. I was right. The Jedi are taking over.

MACE WlNDU: You old fool. The oppression of the Sith will never return. Your plot to regain control of the Republic is over . . . you have lost . . .

PALPATINE: No! No! You will die!

PALPATINE raises his hands, and lightning bolts shoot out. They are blocked by MACE's lightsaber. PALPATINE is pushed back against the window sill.

PALPATINE: He is a traitor, Anakin.

MACE WlNDU: He's the traitor. Stop him!

PALPATINE: Come to your senses, boy. The Jedi are in revolt. They will betray you, just as they betrayed me.

MACE WlNDU: Aarrrrggghhhhh . . .

PALPATINE: You are not one of them, Anakin. Don't let him kill me.

MACE WlNDU: Aarrrrggghhhhh . . .

PALPATINE: I am your pathway to power. I have the power to save the one you love. You must choose. You must stop him.

MACE WlNDU: Don't listen to him, Anakin.

PALPATINE: Help me! Don't let him kill me. I can't hold on any longer. Ahhhhhhh . . . ahhhhhhh . . . ahhhhhhh . . .

MACE pushes PALPATINE out to the edge of the ledge. As the Jedi moves closer, the bolts from Palpatine's hands begin to arch back on him. The Chancellor's face begins to twist and distort. His eyes become yellow as he struggles to intensify his powers.

PALPATINE: I can't ... I give up. Help me. I am weak ... I am too weak. Don't kill me. I give up. I'm dying. I can't hold on any longer.

MACE WlNDU: You Sith disease. I am going to end this once and for all.

ANAKIN: You can't kill him, Master. He must stand trial.

MACE WlNDU: He has too much control of the Senate and the Courts. He is too dangerous to be kept alive.

PALPATINE: I'm too weak. Don't kill me. Please.

ANAKIN: It is not the Jedi way . . .

MACE raises his sword to kill the CHANCELLOR.

ANAKIN: (continuing) He must live . . .

PALPATINE: Please don't, please don't . . .

ANAKIN: I need him . . .

PALPATINE: Please don't . . .

ANAKIN: NO!!!

Just as MACE is about to slash PALPATINE, ANAKIN steps in and cuts off the Jedi's hand holding the lightsaber.

As MACE stares at ANAKIN in shock, PALPATINE springs to life.
The full force of Palpatine's powerful Bolts blasts MACE. He attempts to deflect them with his one good hand, but the force is too great. As blue rays engulf his body, he is flung out the window and falls twenty stories to his death. No more screams. No more moans. PALPATINE lowers his arm.

https://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html

 

[pixletwin]

Emphasis should be placed on Palpatine springs to life.

 

[bumblebee]

Emphasis should be placed on Palpatine springs to life.

....so he caught his second wind no biggie....

 

[Captain Faramir]

You Sith disease? Good heavens, that writing is awful!

 

[Spartan Rex]

This is what we know "from the movie":

1) Palpatine had his eye on a new apprentice.

2) Palpatine comes "out of the closet" to Anakin. Surely he knew that, assuming Anakin didni't strike him down then and there, Anakin would run to the Jedi Council with that news.

3) He knew Mace would be coming (he said as much at the begining of that scene).

4) He sensed Anakin was on his way.

5) He fell down pleading with exaustion (obviously faked).

6) He had total 100% trust in Anakin that he would do what he did (stop Mace) and in doing so he would Anakin as his.

7) After Mace was disposed of, he miraculously regains his strength and even seems MORE powerful.

8) Killing Mace and gaining Anakin as his aprentice gave him the leeway he needed to declare Order 66.

Now, knowing all these things and the master manipulator we all agree Palpatine was, isn't it quite obvious that everyone were just pawns put in motion to destroy the jedi and gain control of the Republic?

The catalyst that set all these events in motion was Palpatine revealing who he truly was to Anakin.

This was orchestrated and (I am sorry for all you Mace fans) Mace was a pawn which Palpatine played masterfully and got the exact results he needed.

4) He sensed Anakin was on his way.
How was that revealed in the movie?

Sidious gambled that Anakin would intervene and in that context he was victorious. But its impossible to tell how far reaching his plan was in making that come about. I believe Rick McCallum the producer said at a con in fact Mace had won the saber duel outright but that Sidious won the conflict because his most powerful weapon wasnt a saber but his insight into Anakin.
The novelization (which is based on the script) of the movie backs this up as well.(The author said he had access to Lucas if he had questions) Mace was to fixated on Sidious through Vepad/Force that he didnt sense the struggle in Anakin who was standing mere feet away.
Mace shouldve done a better job at countering Sidious' lies to Anakin while he stood there however. He needed to remind him that Sidious was ultimately behind the loss of his hand by Dooku, the clone war, the death of Master Jinn and the attempts on Padmes life.

 

[pixletwin]

4) He sensed Anakin was on his way.
How was that revealed in the movie?

Sidious gambled that Anakin would intervene and in that context he was victorious. But its impossible to tell how far reaching his plan was in making that come about. I believe Rick McCallum the producer said at a con in fact Mace had won the saber duel outright but that Sidious won the conflict because his most powerful weapon wasnt a saber but his insight into Anakin.
The novelization (which is based on the script) of the movie backs this up as well.(The author said he had access to Lucas if he had questions) Mace was to fixated on Sidious through Vepad/Force that he didnt sense the struggle in Anakin who was standing mere feet away.
Mace shouldve done a better job at countering Sidious' lies to Anakin while he stood there however. He needed to remind him that Sidious was ultimately behind the loss of his hand by Dooku, the clone war, the death of Master Jinn and the attempts on Padmes life.

I am seeing an awful lot of people in here who are undestanding that 2 + 2 = 4 but there is a lack of comprehension about what "4" means.

We all know that Mace "won" the duel. The issue is whether or not Palpatine let him win. Or in other words, whether or not Palpatine meant to lose.

 

[Captain Faramir]

I am seeing an awful lot of people in here who are seeing the 2 + 2 = 4 but there is a lack of understand what "4" means.

But that's from your point of view. You're treating the other opinion like the mindless ravings of ignorant school children, which isn't very fair. This isn't two plus two, it's a matter of opinion, like which music you think is better or who you think is a better painter. There's no right or wrong answer, and it's not nice to think that only some people really "understand" the issue when it's so utterly subjective.