Who had the upper hand, Mace or Palpatine?

[lerath666]

Additional note, I dont need to google Vapadd, I'm quite familior with it. But those are jedi combat arts, who's to say the sith don't have their own? the problem with the EU is you start getting into alot of grey area, ESP with the sith. there is so much we simply do not know about them.

 

[bagelsncheesey]

here is my problem with that. mace is not one toy "play with his food"
He's a man of action, if he was so much stronger, why did he not simply cut Sidious down earlier? why did he ask for anakin's help when he sowhed up if he did not need it?
also, even if mace is using Vapadd, a dark side style of fighting, he's only playing with it, Sidious has dedicated his entire life to the study of the dark side of the force. he would, therefore have more knowledge of it, in therory, making him stronger in it.

Now, it is estabilshed that mace is one of the greatest jedi swordsmen of all time, but palpatine had no trouble keeping up with him in the fight, untill he was disarmed. Most likely, palpatine cheated, but even then, as we've said, he was a master at adapting to the situation. He drew on the darkside, and kept pace with mace, waiting for the key moment when Anakin would arive.

Maybe i'm totally blanking out as i'm recovering from a cold and it's been a long week at work, but when did Mace ask for Anakins help?? He told him not to interfere, and that he was going to end it right now. If anything, he was trying to keep Anakin out of the situation.

 

[lerath666]

I could be wrong about that, But i could of sworn he did. Meh, even then, if he could of ended it, why didn't he? the two of them were like two great storms raging against each other.

the specific moment i was refering to was before anakin took maces hand, he';s just barely holding back the force lighting, they both appeal to anakin to join them
Mace: "He's evil, he's too dangerous to be kept alive"
Palpatine: " No, no no no no no YOU WILL DIE"
and then anakin must decide who to help. it's not so much an out an out " anakin help me take him down" Mace is too proud to do something like that, but it is implied.

 

[Agent0028]

He didn't fry himself. He was already disfigured. The clean look of Palpatine was an illusion of the darkside (much like a Jedi mind trick).

Where are you getting that?

 

[bagelsncheesey]

I could be wrong about that, But i could of sworn he did. Meh, even then, if he could of ended it, why didn't he? the two of them were like two great storms raging against each other.

the specific moment i was refering to was before anakin took maces hand, he';s just barely holding back the force lighting, they both appeal to anakin to join them
Mace: "He's evil, he's too dangerous to be kept alive"
Palpatine: " No, no no no no no YOU WILL DIE"
and then anakin must decide who to help. it's not so much an out an out " anakin help me take him down" Mace is too proud to do something like that, but it is implied.

yeah, i hear what you're saying. i agree that mace should have cut him down right then and there, but that's hollywood for ya. they've got to add climactic storytelling through dialog.

 

[Darthrazz]

You just can't see him because his severed hand fell off again and he bent over to pick it up.

Funniest post in a long time! I can't stop laughing!

 

[lerath666]

If you listen to TMRFE, Mace couldn't kill palpatine, becuase he was not the chosen one. thast, and we saw that he was a match for yoda, and Yod's the next strongest jedi after Anakin. Hell, even if mace was stronger than palpatine, Anakin is stronger than Obi-wan, yet obi-wan wins. Why is that?
Becuase He's not hot-headed, he thinks and he plans....... just like palpatine.

 

[Outer_Rim]

I already backed up my reason in my original post....

Google Vaapad. Dark arts.

Mace was stronger than Palpatine. You think Palpatine was really "toying" with Mace, and just fried himself and became disfigured just for the sake of toying with him?

Mace stronger than Palpatine? According to who? Because Lucas has stated that Yoda and Palpatine are the most powerful force user in ROTS. Mace is on par with Palpatine only in sword mastery.

Palpatine clearly fooled Mace and Anakin by making them believe he was defeated and then he laughed at Mace in his face right before killing him.

 

[Captain Faramir]

After reading every post here and finishing a lovely paper on pedagogy in a language classroom (I'm a Spanish Teaching major, it's fun), I'm still not convinced in the least. Mace beat Sidious hands down. It's one of my favorite scenes, watching Mace whoop the poor ol' dude only to get the betrayal of his life at little orphan Ani's hands. None of these other theories are convincing in the least, not from the perspective of the story anyway. To those who uphold such theories, I uphold your right to do so and am grateful for your commentary. However, from the evidence before me, I cannot accept your opinions as anything more than that--opinions. But I still like you all, and after all, this is a place to discuss the deep-seated wonders of nerdom, and so I hope nobody takes any offence to my beliefs. After all, it's good to rattle our ideas around now and then.

 

[pixletwin]

After reading every post here and finishing a lovely paper on pedagogy in a language classroom (I'm a Spanish Teaching major, it's fun), I'm still not convinced in the least. Mace beat Sidious hands down. It's one of my favorite scenes, watching Mace whoop the poor ol' dude only to get the betrayal of his life at little orphan Ani's hands. None of these other theories are convincing in the least, not from the perspective of the story anyway. To those who uphold such theories, I uphold your right to do so and am grateful for your commentary. However, from the evidence before me, I cannot accept your opinions as anything more than that--opinions. But I still like you all, and after all, this is a place to discuss the deep-seated wonders of nerdom, and so I hope nobody takes any offence to my beliefs. After all, it's good to rattle our ideas around now and then.

Thats not a surprise coming from you. You already have it decided that good always bests evil. If you have already decided that, there is nothing more to convince.

(by the way your sentence to wear the Tonner Faramir has not been forgotten).

 

[lerath666]

-Evil will allways win, becuase good is dumb.

 

[Captain Faramir]

Thats not a surprise coming from you. You already have it decided that good always bests evil. If you have already decided that, there is nothing more to convince.

Very true. Very, very true.

 

[darthviper107]

I think Palpatine had a plan for what would happen. Killing Mace right off wouldn't convert Anakin to his side. But Mace still had the ability to win. If he had not decided to kill Palpatine right off but arrested him (since Palpatine was at his mercy) then all would have been good.

 

[chewblacca]

I think that Palpatine allowed the fight to last until Anakin arrived, and here is why:
1 When Palpatine spoke to Anakin during the opera he knew that Anakin had been having visions of Padme dying which is why he mentions Darth Plagius, and that the sith could stop death.

2 When Palpatine confronts Anakin in his office and reveals that he is a sith he admits to knowing that he is married, and the fact that revealing the truth to the Jedi might result in his death. If Palpatine dies, then the information on stopping death dies with him.

3 When Mace and the other Jedi come to arrest Palpatine, the dark lord kills the other jedi too easily. Thereby showing Mace that killing Jedi are nothing to him. Mace and Palpatine cross sabers until Anakin arrives, then the dark lord falters and takes the submissve role proving that the Jedi have no respect for democracy and only want what's best for them. Realizing that Mace may kill him, Palpatine strikes first, but Anakin is still on the sidelines unsure of what to do. Then Palpatine plays his ace by telling Anakin that he has the power to save the one he loves. For Anakin Padme is everything and he cannot allow Palpatine to die, so to move quicker than the Jedi master he dips into the dark side and slices his hand off. Palpatine then realizes that Anakin, so strong in the force is his and so is unlimited power.


The only one who could of stopped him however, is Yoda.

 

[Agent0028]

I think he would have arrested Palpatine, except he realized that Palpatine was way too powerful (not just with the Force, but politically and in popularity among the citizens) and they would never be able to hold him.

 

[denger4000]

I have work in two minutes so I'll make this quick, I always thought and will think that Mace clearly had Palpatine beat.

 

[Darth Caedus]

Ok... Light side powers.. dark side powers, the "force choke" is just telekenesis. it's no different , fundamentaly than lifting rocks, or raising the x-wing from the swamp.

If you follow the EU ( and I do) there is a great amount of detail on the force. there realy is no difference in "light side " and "dark side powers" with a few exceptions, it all comes down to how you use it.

( for thge record, the only two, definite Dark side powers, according to the eu are Force lighting, and injure/kill, and no, injure/kill IS NOT FORCE CHOKE)

I don't think so. THe idea that there is no dark/light side is what Vergere kept trying to tell Jacen during the Vong War and is what she was trying to convince Luke and the New Jedi Order. Luke absolutely believes that there is a dark side and light side (from what EU I've read). He did use some dark side powers in the Dark Nest Trilogy, but that was to stay alive, not for malavolent purposes.

 

[lerath666]

You're misreading me. there is a light and dark.. but it's not as simple as light good/ Dark bad.
it's deeper than that. And it starts with HOW you use the force. In addition, Jedi draw from nature, from outside themselves, this is the natural order of things.
the darkside draws from within ones self, from your passions and emotions. it is easier to reach inner harmony and draw power from the inside than it is to be at one with the univers. this is why the dark side is quicker and easier.
but i digress.
the powers themsevles are what are ( for the most part) neither fundamentaly good or evil, but it's who uses them, and how they are used that define it.
A sith using Force jump will undoubtably draw on the dark side to do it, a jedi would simply use the force as normal. does either action make the power lightt or dark? not really.
Luke uses telekenesis to lift stones and R2. Vader uses the exact same power to choke his officers. Is either version of it light or dark? kinda but not really.
Force lighting serves one purpose, to inflict pain, and drain the life from it's victim. it can ONLY be channeld from the darkside. as such it is a dark side power..

Injure/kill is a power that only appears , as far as i know, in the Tabele Top RPG. injure kill can only be used by darksiders, it's a power that is unnatural. Using it Simply Kills any living being, they simply cease to live. It's kinda like a star wars equivalant of Avada Kedavra. Only it can wound, cripple or kill, depending on the intent. The RPG explains that it sees little use, as it is instant, and sith like to draw out their enimies demise, and relish their sffering, not snuff then like a candle.

 

[chewblacca]

What kills me about all of this is that many are going by the EU, when all of that is speculative when comapred to the movies and the fact that Lucas says that nothing is definite if it is not in the movies.

 

[darthviper107]

There is no dark or light side of the force, there's only the dark or light side of the person who uses the Force.


But anyway, I do think that if they did arrest Palpatine, he would be powerful enough to escape, but at least people would know the truth and there wouldn't be any way that they would allow the Empire to be created.