Hot Toys MMS 446 - The Last Jedi Rey (Jedi Training)

[customizerwannabe]

People may not want to be challenged, but in 15 years they'll all happily have episodes 7,8, and 9 in their collections, the same way we all have 1, 2, and 3.

Not all will.

 

[fantasticfrog]

The stink of cynicism here is amazing. I could recognize its foul stench when I was brought onboard.

If Luke was a joke to you, then you weren't paying attention. But his demoralized old self is a good metaphor of haters. You are Luke Skywalker at 60.

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Even Mark Hamill spoke out against the portrayal of Luke and he actually was Luke at 60. He had to backtrack and apologize.

 

[hen88]

So is it gender first, or identifying with a character in a story based on internal qualities first?

It’s both. Read my post again. The status quo hero is traditionally male, with hyper-masculine qualities. I’m asking why there always need to be a status quo hero in adventure/sci-fi films? Finn and Poe were still heroes, just not in the usual mold because they had flaws and were learning how to be heroes. I guess that is frustrating and possibly triggering for some.

 

[SilverStar17]

It’s both. Read my post again. The status quo hero is traditionally male, with hyper-masculine qualities. I’m asking why there always need to be a status quo hero in adventure/sci-fi films? Finn and Poe were still heroes, just not in the usual mold because they had flaws and were learning how to be heroes. I guess that is frustrating and possibly triggering for some.

I did read your post(s). Which is why I'm asking.

I understand what you're attempting to say, but it's difficult to fathom that if you've asserted that it's about relating to a character regardless of external labels, why you're then in that case so focused on a character's gender, which is something external. I concur that one should relate to a character based on their internal qualities, like you've stated. However, I've noticed there have been many people on here who have simply said they didn't like Rey's character for reasons pertaining to the character itself, and your response to them has essentially been that they don't like her simply because the character happens to be female. Which in that case, occurs to me to be kind of contradictory to your own premise of one needing to relate to a character based on internal qualities, because it appears that the one who is focusing on the external labels first and not the internal qualities of the character, would be yourself.

 

[RandomHero]

What about Thor in Infinity War? Or Star Lord? They both survived in space. Why don’t you complain about them?

Because Star Lord has a mask that allows him to breathe in space, and Thor is an actual god. That's not the same thing, at all.

 

[SilverStar17]

Because Star Lord has a mask that allows him to breathe in space, and Thor is an actual god. That's not the same thing, at all.

Star-Lord was also a half God in the first GotG.

 

[Khev]

Because Star Lord has a mask that allows him to breathe in space, and Thor is an actual god. That's not the same thing, at all.

Star-Lord took off his mask and gave it to Gamora and then floated alive in space for about the same amount of time as Leia until Yondu picked him up.

 

[RandomHero]

Star-Lord took off his mask and gave it to Gamora and then floated alive in space for about the same amount of time as Leia until Yondu picked him up.

Ok, he's still half celestial.

 

[SilverStar17]

Star-Lord took off his mask and gave it to Gamora and then floated alive in space for about the same amount of time as Leia until Yondu picked him up.

So what you're saying is that the big question now becomes: can a human Force wielder handle an Infinity Stone bare handed and survive?

 

[Turtle882]

Even Mark Hamill spoke out against the portrayal of Luke and he actually was Luke at 60. He had to backtrack and apologize.

I wouldn't exactly say that Mark Hamill spoke out against the portrayal. He made it clear that it wasn't his vision, but even before "backtracking" he said he had to accept Johnson's vision because it served the story so well, or something to that effect. And he also said that he didn't think Luke would ever have been so cynical, but then added that it caused him to look deeper and question what would make him lose that optimism. What Hamill said was more akin to "It's not my vision, but challenge accepted."

 

[TonTon]

Hamill was so good in this movie. My main gripe when all is said and done is that they killed him at the end. So frustrating, even if he returns as a ghost it’s not the same.

As others have said, Ford had wanted to Han killed off as far back as Empire/Jedi, so even if it was maybe more dark than it needed to be it was more expected. The Luke death had no emotional impact. Just felt like a WTF moment.

 

[SilverStar17]

Hamill was so good in this movie. My main gripe when all is said and done is that they killed him at the end. So frustrating, even if he returns as a ghost it’s not the same.

As others have said, Ford had wanted to Han killed off as far back as Empire/Jedi, so even if it was maybe more dark than it needed to be it was more expected. The Luke death had no emotional impact. Just felt like a WTF moment.

My sentiments also.

I had a lot of issues with this film to where it's not a SW film I particularly like overall, but Luke for me wasn't one of those issues. I personally liked his character arc as it made sense to me, and I felt he was one of the few shining lights of TLJ. As far as his death goes, I thought the setting for it was very apt for the character, with him staring at the twin setting suns to conclude his journey, just as he had done when his journey began. I personally wouldn't have wanted to see him go out Obi-Wan style in a lightsaber duel; to me that would have been a WTF moment. I like that it was on his own terms, by himself, while helping the Resistance escape to fight another day. Having them live today and fight tomorrow, while he is the one that dies today to enable them to do so.

My only gripe is I wish he could have died at the conclusion of the trilogy, but conversely, I also understand how his death at this point is meant to help propel the newer characters as well and develop their character arcs.

 

[davejames]

I wouldn't exactly say that Mark Hamill spoke out against the portrayal. He made it clear that it wasn't his vision, but even before "backtracking" he said he had to accept Johnson's vision because it served the story so well, or something to that effect. And he also said that he didn't think Luke would ever have been so cynical, but then added that it caused him to look deeper and question what would make him lose that optimism. What Hamill said was more akin to "It's not my vision, but challenge accepted."

And it's also not surprising that he'd still want to play the noble, optimistic and iconic hero of ROTJ again instead of something much more challenging and complex that was sure to be divisive to the fanbase.

It was also his idea to have Luke appear in the forest at the end of TFA, so clearly he was itching to be the big iconic hero again. Whether it actually made sense for the story or not.

 

[TonTon]

My sentiments also.

I had a lot of issues with this film to where it's not a SW film I particularly like overall, but Luke for me wasn't one of those issues. I personally liked his character arc as it made sense to me, and I felt he was one of the few shining lights of TLJ. As far as his death goes, I thought the setting for it was very apt for the character, with him staring at the twin setting suns to conclude his journey, just as he had done when his journey began. I personally wouldn't have wanted to see him go out Obi-Wan style in a lightsaber duel; to me that would have been a WTF moment. I like that it was on his own terms, by himself, while helping the Resistance escape to fight another day. Having them live today and fight tomorrow, while he is the one that dies today to enable them to do so.

My only gripe is I wish he could have died at the conclusion of the trilogy, but conversely, I also understand how his death at this point is meant to help propel the newer characters as well and develop their character arcs.

Yeah, they wrote themselves into a corner by making Ren so obsessed with killing him, but I still don’t think they needed to kill him off, just leaves a sour taste to know they brought all the heroes back just to kill them all off one by one.

 

[Khev]

As others have said, Ford had wanted to Han killed off as far back as Empire/Jedi, so even if it was maybe more dark than it needed to be it was more expected. The Luke death had no emotional impact. Just felt like a WTF moment.

My sentiments also.

I had a lot of issues with this film to where it's not a SW film I particularly like overall, but Luke for me wasn't one of those issues. I personally liked his character arc as it made sense to me, and I felt he was one of the few shining lights of TLJ. As far as his death goes, I thought the setting for it was very apt for the character, with him staring at the twin setting suns to conclude his journey, just as he had done when his journey began. I personally wouldn't have wanted to see him go out Obi-Wan style in a lightsaber duel; to me that would have been a WTF moment. I like that it was on his own terms, by himself, while helping the Resistance escape to fight another day. Having them live today and fight tomorrow, while he is the one that dies today to enable them to do so.

My only gripe is I wish he could have died at the conclusion of the trilogy, but conversely, I also understand how his death at this point is meant to help propel the newer characters as well and develop their character arcs.

I agree with both sentiments. I loved the iconography of Luke's journey ending in front of the twins suns but since I didn't even realize that his life was in danger at that moment (I thought he was just exhausted, nothing more) it was both poignant watching Luke fade away but somewhat undermined by a feeling of "wait, what? Why did he just die?" And that little bit of confusion took away some of the impact unfortunately.

It's fine watching it now because I understand the scene better but I wish it could have had maximum impact on the first viewing (when it mattered most.)

 

[TonTon]

I agree with both sentiments. I loved the iconography of Luke's journey ending in front of the twins suns but since I didn't even realize that his life was in danger at that moment (I thought he was just exhausted, nothing more) it was both poignant watching Luke fade away but somewhat undermined by a feeling of "wait, what? Why did he just die?" And that little bit of confusion took away some of the impact unfortunately.

It's fine watching it now because I understand the scene better but I wish it could have had maximum impact on the first viewing (when it mattered most.)

Yeah, that was more the reaction I had. They were a bit too subtle with the explanation that force projection would kill you.

 

[SilverStar17]

I agree with both sentiments. I loved the iconography of Luke's journey ending in front of the twins suns but since I didn't even realize that his life was in danger at that moment (I thought he was just exhausted, nothing more) it was both poignant watching Luke fade away but somewhat undermined by a feeling of "wait, what? Why did he just die?" And that little bit of confusion took away some of the impact unfortunately.

It's fine watching it now because I understand the scene better but I wish it could have had maximum impact on the first viewing (when it mattered most.)

Yep, that's how I felt as well. All in all, I'm good with it and it evokes emotion. Like you said though, the first viewing it was more like a "wait, what? So he's gone now just like that?" Second viewing was better, and whenever I rewatch the scene now on YouTube, it's poignant.

And I also maintain the conviction that I would have liked to have seen Leia be the one to move the boulders at the end as opposed to Rey, having the Skywalker twins working in tandem to help the Resistance escape. I know it was supposed to be Rey's moment and important for the development of the character, but I feel they could have possibly done something else with Rey and that she'll have many more opportunities for her moment, than what Leia will have. I feel Leia moving the boulders also could have served as her powerful display of Force ability as opposed to the spacewalk, and it would have meant more because it would have came at a moment when it was needed out of her the most.

 

[Khev]

just leaves a sour taste to know they brought all the heroes back just to kill them all off one by one.

I try not to get irritated about what could have been, I think that there have been a number of narrative oversights, some larger than others obviously but with regard to killing off the characters we know that Leia was supposed to stick around and that Fisher's passing was something out of their control. Also Ford famously disowned any attachment to the character of Han Solo for decades so I figure that LFL probably wanted him back for all three but he would only agree to one as long as they killed him off.

So not so much this corporate directive to "kill the past" but rather just making do with the options available to them.

 

[Khev]

Yeah, that was more the reaction I had. They were a bit too subtle with the explanation that force projection would kill you.

Yeah Kylo's line about "you're not doing this, the effort alone would kill you" went right over my head the first viewing.

 

[Khev]

Yep, that's how I felt as well. All in all, I'm good with it and it evokes emotion. Like you said though, the first viewing it was more like a "wait, what? So he's gone now just like that?" Second viewing was better, and whenever I rewatch the scene now on YouTube, it's poignant.

And I also maintain the conviction that I would have liked to have seen Leia be the one to move the boulders at the end as opposed to Rey, having the Skywalker twins working in tandem to help the Resistance escape. I know it was supposed to be Rey's moment and important for the development of the character, but I feel they could have possibly done something else with Rey and that she'll have many more opportunities for her moment, than what Leia will have. I feel Leia moving the boulders also could have served as her powerful display of Force ability as opposed to the spacewalk, and it would have meant more because it would have came at a moment when it was needed out of her the most.

Or maybe because there were so many boulders that were so large just have the sequence where Luke says "and I will not be the last Jedi" be that they still cut to a close-up of Rey but then pull back to show both Rey and Leia reaching out their hands to lift the boulders.