Hot Toys MMS 446 - The Last Jedi Rey (Jedi Training)

[SilverStar17]

Just to play Devil's advocate, if it's about identifying with a character based on the internal qualities of that character and not external as you just said, such as gender, then why are you such an advocate for more female characters in lieu of male? You just said it's about identifying with and relating to the internal qualities of a character and not external, which I would completely agree with.

 

[RandomHero]

Would it have changed anyones mind if it was Luke that did it instead of Leia? I know a lot of fans wanted Luke using the force to pull star destroyers out of the sky so a space walk would have been childs play.

Yondu = ends up in outer space, dead in seconds
Mini Me = ends up in outer space, back for the next movie.

Yeah, I would have had a problem with it if it was Luke.

 

[hen88]

There's no mass in space, but you know what else is missing in space? Air. Heat. Anyone who ends up in space without some kind of suit would be dead in seconds. I mean, you literally see Leia start to crystalize! It's an entirely absurd, unbelievable scene, even in a fantasy setting. You can explain how the Force works or how Captain America has unlimited stamina or how Sauron could wield the One Ring, but I'm sorry, you can never explain how someone can not be dead in a matter of seconds with their bare skin out in space.

You’re arguing about physics when it’s really about the force. It’s basically nonsensical magic. The force kept her alive. It’s no more or less plausible than using it to control people’s minds or lifting things or projecting yourself across the galaxy. I feel like people really need to let this go. Sure, it might have felt hokey to some people, but Leia gets to have her force moment too. It’s petty to delegitimize it.

 

[hen88]

Just to play Devil's advocate, if it's about identifying with a character based on the internal qualities of that character and not external as you just said, such as gender, then why are you such an advocate for more female characters in lieu of male? You just said it's about identifying with and relating to the internal qualities of a character and not external, which I would completely agree with.

My point is that I don’t think we always have to have male heroes and saviors. It’s certainly well-covered territory in movies (like basically since the beginning of time). It’s the status quo. I was responding to a poster who couldn’t deal with men being taught lessons by women and being portrayed in a negative or weak light. So it’s definitely about gender. I’m challenging people to look past the status quo and deal with the fact that there might not be a male hero in the story designed for the male audience members to easily identify with. But that doesn’t mean that they cannot find ways to identify with the female heros in the story.

 

[hen88]

Yondu = ends up in outer space, dead in seconds
Mini Me = ends up in outer space, back for the next movie.

Yeah, I would have had a problem with it if it was Luke.

What about Thor in Infinity War? Or Star Lord? They both survived in space. Why don’t you complain about them?

 

[zeiss]

For Neb.....


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Obi-wan was so postmodern

 

[che5ter666]

What about Thor in Infinity War? Or Star Lord? They both survived in space. Why don’t you complain about them?

You'll probably get a response about them being a God/half God or something like that.

Seems people are completely ignoring the fact that the Force was at play.

 

[Rorywan]

Is that what is so triggering about TLJ? Because deeply flawed male characters fail and learn lessons? I don’t think that’s sexist. Why do men always need to see other male heroes to identify with in movies? I’m a man, and I can identify with aspects of Rey, Leia, Rose, and Holdo. And I’ve been taught many valuable lessons from the women in my life. There’s nothing wrong with showing failure and learning by men in films. If anything it’s more of a stereotype to show the all powerful male hero who saves the day and gets the girl in the end. I’m fine with showing male vulnerability. It doesn’t bother me.

It wasn't about having deeply flawed male characters learn lessons.
It was about ALL the men being flawed, evil or in need of lessons.
For these narratives to work they need balance. This was ham-fisted cheesy writing.

Name one male character in TLJ that didn't fit into this category?
Mix that with immediate and sudden feminisation of the resistance. And it was just idiotic. And unneccesary.

We already have well written strong women in Star Wars - Leia is an icon. Rey works as a new central character.
Jynn Erso was fantastic. This undermined all of those by playing it cheap and dumb.

You don't get equality by negating the other side.

 

[SilverStar17]

My point is that I don’t think we always have to have male heroes and saviors. It’s certainly well-covered territory in movies (like basically since the beginning of time). It’s the status quo. I was responding to a poster who couldn’t deal with men being taught lessons by women and being portrayed in a negative or weak light. So it’s definitely about gender. I’m challenging people to look past the status quo and deal with the fact that there might not be a male hero in the story designed for the male audience members to easily identify with. But that doesn’t mean that they cannot find ways to identify with the female heros in the story.

So is it gender first, or identifying with a character in a story based on internal qualities first?

 

[Superman-Prime]

It wasn't about having deeply flawed male characters learn lessons.
It was about ALL the men being flawed, evil or in need of lessons.
For these narratives to work they need balance. This was ham-fisted cheesy writing.

Name one male character in TLJ that didn't fit into this category?
Mix that with immediate and sudden feminisation of the resistance. And it was just idiotic. And unneccesary.

We already have well written strong women in Star Wars - Leia is an icon. Rey works as a new central character.
Jynn Erso was fantastic. This undermined all of those by playing it cheap and dumb.

You don't get equality by negating the other side.

I totally agree. I watch Beyond the Trailer on You Tube. Grace Randolph had a big discussion about how Disney and especially Star Wars needs to be careful with this very topic. She said it stood out to her how all the male characters were evil or incompetent. She wondered why there couldn’t be equality. Why do you have to tear one gender down to build the other up? It also runs the risk of isolating male fans.



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[SilverStar17]

I totally agree. I watch Beyond the Trailer on You Tube. Grace Randolph had a big discussion about how Disney and especially Star Wars needs to be careful with this very topic. She said it stood out to her how all the male characters were evil or incompetent. She wondered why there couldn’t be equality. Why do you have to tear one gender down to build the other up? It also runs the risk of isolating male fans.



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Not to mention it limits creativity.

 

[okieh 2]

I totally agree. I watch Beyond the Trailer on You Tube. Grace Randolph had a big discussion about how Disney and especially Star Wars needs to be careful with this very topic. She said it stood out to her how all the male characters were evil or incompetent. She wondered why there couldn’t be equality. Why do you have to tear one gender down to build the other up? It also runs the risk of isolating male fans.



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That was exactly my main problem with TLJ.

 

[customizerwannabe]

Star Wars has unfortunately become a liberal's playground, run by Disney and the "shove diversity down your throat until you choke" crew. The movies suffer, and the the box office gate suffers. I'll stick with loving the first 2 movies, tolerating the next 4, and not watching anything beyond. Thankfully HT is still paying attention to the classics.

 

[fantasticfrog]

I’m just pretending the sequels never happened. To me, they are bad expanded universe, like the vong, crystal star, and other books that weren’t good. I left force awakens angry and disgusted about Han. I left last Jedi calm, I figured it would happen to Luke. When there is no plan for a trilogy, you’re screwed. How did Disney do a good job with marvel continuity? Must be kk.

 

[fantasticfrog]

If it were up to me, the sequels would have been unrelated to the ot. If Disney wasn’t going to respect the ending of rotj, then leave the ot characters out of it, have Rey Finn Poe and make a new story. Shouldn’t be that hard. There is no way to save this trilogy for me unless they do a Bobby Ewing it was all a Dream (Dallas tv show reference) scenario.
I could care less about the political stuff, female superhero characters, and leia poppins. Whatever
I hate that we never got Luke Han Leia together on screen, killed the 2 main heroes needlessly, made Luke a total joke, and ruined the franchise. Jj is just as bad as Johnson and kk.

 

[RPM716]

I left force awakens angry and disgusted about Han.

Because he was killed off? Harrison Ford wanted that for 30 years and the only reason it didn’t happen in ROTJ is because George Lucas wanted to sell toys...



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[Saintv1]

There's no mass in space, but you know what else is missing in space? Air. Heat. Anyone who ends up in space without some kind of suit would be dead in seconds. I mean, you literally see Leia start to crystalize! It's an entirely absurd, unbelievable scene, even in a fantasy setting. You can explain how the Force works or how Captain America has unlimited stamina or how Sauron could wield the One Ring, but I'm sorry, you can never explain how someone can not be dead in a matter of seconds with their bare skin out in space.

Sure, I’m just responding to the complaint about “flying Leia”. Whether she could survive in the void is another question. I don’t think it’s out of the question that the force could protect her from the void (and heal her injuries)—in the EU Vader was able to heal his own injuries, if only on a temporary basis. Though at the very least that would require her to be protecting herself when she appears to be unconscious. RJ’s position is her use of the force was instinctual, not strictly conscious, so I guess that’s how her survival is supposed to be framed.

 

[WesMordine]

The stink of cynicism here is amazing. I could recognize its foul stench when I was brought onboard.

If Luke was a joke to you, then you weren't paying attention. But his demoralized old self is a good metaphor of haters. You are Luke Skywalker at 60.

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[fantasticfrog]

I was mad han was killed off, but more the way it was done. Falling into an abyss like a piece of garbage, killed by his dork son we knew nothing about and didn’t have chance to care about. If Han died, it should have been saving leia or something heroic. Not as a washed up smuggler, not with leia, and Luke didn’t even know or seem to care.

That said, Han Solo is a legendary character. There was no reason to murder him, other than Harrison Ford wanted to do it. He could have been a prisoner used to lure Luke out of hiding. Rescuing Han Solo again should have been right up jj’s alley, as most of tfa was a rehash.
Like I said, to me, the ot characters should have been left out of it. It could have been a story simply about Rey.

 

[Turtle882]

My point is that I don’t think we always have to have male heroes and saviors. It’s certainly well-covered territory in movies (like basically since the beginning of time). It’s the status quo. I was responding to a poster who couldn’t deal with men being taught lessons by women and being portrayed in a negative or weak light. So it’s definitely about gender. I’m challenging people to look past the status quo and deal with the fact that there might not be a male hero in the story designed for the male audience members to easily identify with. But that doesn’t mean that they cannot find ways to identify with the female heros in the story.

I get what you're saying and agree, but I don't think people around here are going to accept that challenge. The male hero status quo is not accepting of challenges, and even though in this movie the females fail/are weak/are misguided as often as the males, it seems many viewers only want to see the male shortcomings, probably because they aren't used to seeing that, but seeing females with those characteristics is common. People may not want to be challenged, but in 15 years they'll all happily have episodes 7,8, and 9 in their collections, the same way we all have 1, 2, and 3.

As for Leia having ice crystals form on her in space, that's a sign the force is doing something. You don't freeze quickly in space vacuum. There's nothing there to transfer the heat away. There's just nothing. What does happen is that in vacuum, all of the gasses in your body quickly expand and all the liquid boils off. If anything, that coating of crystals could have served as a protective coating, essentially acting as a force-made emergency space suit.