Logan (New Wolverine movie March 3rd 2017)

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None of those are the same though. Robocop's inner conflict was nothing like Wolverine's. Same goes for Hulk and Superman and Stark and Spidey with Venom, etc.

Wolverine's particular emotional torment is that there's a side of him that lives just underneath the surface which wants to kill and enjoys killing. Creed embraces that side and thinks Wolvie's a fool to suppress it. But for 200 years that's exactly what he did. He only killed when it was absolutely necessary even though in doing so felt more alive than ever.

X-24 was literally everything he knew he could be - personified. It was like looking in the mirror and seeing that great torment realized.

The only character that mildly shares Wolvie's plight is Marv from Sin City. He fears to one day become a psycho killer like the cops and doctors say he will. That's why he takes the pills. Like Wolvie, he's a master killer with a massive sense of honor that keeps him killing heroically and never for villainous reasons.


Yup.

Not to mention Zod, ED-209, Obadiah Stane, Abomination are completely different characters that act as a foil to each of their protagonists. X-23 is literally a clone of Wolverine played by Hugh Jackman. I've never seen anything like this before (save for what a-dev mentioned with Mystique) other than Evil Supes vs. Clark Kent, which is the best part of Superman 3.
 
Wolverine's particular emotional torment is that there's a side of him that lives just underneath the surface which wants to kill and enjoys killing.

Honestly I don't see how that's any different than Banner's conflict with the beast within and then his blood being used to create the psychopathic Abomination. Sure Hulk and Abomination didn't look *exactly* the same but neither did Logan and X-24. If you want to split hairs because both good guy and bad guy were played by Jackman compared to the Hulk well, again, we'd already seen even that in an X-Men movie.

Now I don't believe *for one second* that you'd ever give a pass to an MCU character fighting their own doppleganger (and really the whole "evil twin" thing is a concept that is *minimally* decades old) but that is neither here nor there. ;)

It worked for you in Logan which is cool and I will admit that it did allow for one heck of a mind**** when Xavier was stabbed so I'll give it that. If they had just said that the Reavers made 24 wear a bright yellow suit to make him easier to locate (it's not like he would have complained) then I would have probably forgiven it. Hell X-24 in yellow spandex would have been EXACTLY the version of himself that Logan would have despised the most, all the more reason to go there. :lecture ;)

And DiFabio I was thinking more of RoboCain, not ED-209. Corporation creates a badass, he doesn't do exactly what they want so they make a better/meaner/more compliant model, the old and the new fight, yada yada yada. Hell Cain even had special juice like X-24.
 
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the whole "evil twin" thing is a concept that is *minimally* decades old.

dCQP33L.gif


Yup, Logan sucks, TDK reigns supreme. :lol

fixed :D
 
I'm not saying that a character fighting an evil version of themselves is something that can never be revisited in film or anything, hell a good number of my own favorite movies repeat themes we'd seen a hundred times before. And if you want to reconcile the repetition in of Wolverine vs. Wolverine then just say it's poetry or things coming full circle or whatever. I was just surprised to see it in *this* movie.

Maybe it'll just take another viewing or two for me to fully warm up to X-24 vs. my own bias against "what could or should have been."
 
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I did have a moment of "oh-noooesssss" when I realized we took the left down Evil Twin Boulevard but it worked so well thematically in this case it felt legit. I don't care for the trope but I feel like once they thought of it for this movie it was too perfect to dismiss on filmmaking principle.
 
Logan was so disappointing. The whole goal of Wolverine's story is to eventually give him peace. They just can't let him resolve his issues. This movie shat all over DOFP's epilogue. Him and Professor X died pathetically. It was dumb to introduce a daughter and then just kill off Wolverine. Don't get me started on Charles killing the X-Men.

X-24....I don't know what they were thinking with him. Forgettable villains, just another Mangold movie. I'll be content if he doesn't ever touch X-Men again.

Now excuse me while I drown my sorrows by watching the First Class trilogy and Deadpool.
 
Logan was so disappointing. The whole goal of Wolverine's story is to eventually give him peace. They just can't let him resolve his issues. This movie shat all over DOFP's epilogue. Him and Professor X died pathetically. It was dumb to introduce a daughter and then just kill off Wolverine. Don't get me started on Charles killing the X-Men..

Not that I agree with everything, but I do prefer DOFP over Logan.
 
I did have a moment of "oh-noooesssss" when I realized we took the left down Evil Twin Boulevard

:lol

It's just the whole "serving two masters" slippery slope that plagued the TDK trilogy as well. Once you go full "Heat" or "Silence of the Lambs" and then make an abrupt left into "flying on rooftops" territory it can be a bit jarring unless it's the best damn flying on rooftops scene ever. :lol On the flip side Unbreakable and Split went full Hitchcockian thriller without backtracking into any jarringly cliche superhero tropes. Imagine if halfway through Split Anya Taylor-Joy jumped up, wrapped her legs around McAvoy's neck and threw him to the ground. It'd be kind of a "really, we're going there?" moment.

The MCU has had movies that served two masters but they tend to pic genres that make for a more traditional overlap, like 70's political thriller meets 70's James Bond (The Winter Soldier.) Unforgiven meets Star Trek just takes a little more getting used to. ;)

Because that's kind of what Logan did. 90 minutes of Unforgiven and then all of a sudden it's Captain Kirk vs. Evil Kirk, and then back to Unforgiven. But again, it might play better going forward knowing to anticipate it.

Anyway, mulling over the ending more has given me a new way of looking at it. Logan makes it clear that his entire life, spanning more than a century, has been nothing but him outliving everyone he cares about. Whether they die violently (which is often the case) or by natural causes they still die while he has to live. Finally he gets to rest which is actually the only happy ending he ever *could* have. If he had walked off into the sunset with Laura then it'd still just be only a matter of time before he had to bury her too. Unless she buried him.

I *really* appreciate the ambiguity of "so that's what it feels like." What what feels like? Love? Death? Victory? Peace? Take your pick, the movie doesn't clarify so we get to decide. Whatever "it" is was something that had eluded him his entire life. He got to check out knowing that all the present danger had been defeated and that "someone he cared about" was still living and breathing when it was all said and done. Whether she lived five minutes or five decades after that moment didn't matter. The cycle was broken and finally someone outlasted Logan's watch.

The farmhouse scene was tragic for the family but Charles' gift to Laura was an opportunity to laugh. And sit at the table as a family, with neighbors, getting just a sample of how sweet "normal" life can be. Charles said it was the best night he'd had in years which means it was probably Laura's best night EVER. And that was a precedent she got to take with her after Logan's death. And if Charles' gift was laughter then Logan's gift was prompting her to return to speaking verbally and more importantly getting to experience having a father. She literally said as much at the very end.

And if Xavier's greatest gift to Logan (that Charles angrily threw in his face early in the film) was "giving him a family" then that means in the last few moments of his life Logan stopped being "Wolverine" and took on the mantle of "Professor X," giving the gift of family to one last student.
 
This movie shat all over DOFP's epilogue.

Did it really? The movie is set nearly two decades after DOFP's epilogue. Just because DOFP ended on a positive note doesn't mean the future is going to be all hunky dory, as is typical with the X-Men.

Him and Professor X died pathetically.

I can understand that with Professor X perhaps, even if I thought it was touching, his last moments. But Logan's death is "pathetic"? No, sir. No. His end is perfection as he gets one last chance to let out his rage that has been accumulating over the centuries and use it to save lives he cares about. Lives that are the future of his kind.

It was dumb to introduce a daughter and then just kill off Wolverine.

The former is from the comics and the latter is simply not an accurate summation of the film. It's not like the film says "Oh hey, Logan's dead now, enjoy a trilogy of movies about this kid." Not at all. This is hyperbolic.

Don't get me started on Charles killing the X-Men.

Again, I believe this is straight out of the comics.
 
:lol

If they had put X24 in spot-on Wolverine costuming right now we'd be reading "they finally put Wolverine in his costume and it's not really Wolverine puh-huh-huh-huh...":monkey2:monkey2:monkey2

lol so true.

Yep. That wouldn't have worked either.

I thought Khev provided a very compelling and logical reason why X24 should've been in yellow costume.

X24 being in costume would've been an insult to Logan but not because Logan would be jealous of it, because Logan hated that version of himself.

Right, is that what you're protesting? :lol
 
Did it really? The movie is set nearly two decades after DOFP's epilogue. Just because DOFP ended on a positive note doesn't mean the future is going to be all hunky dory, as is typical with the X-Men.



I can understand that with Professor X perhaps, even if I thought it was touching, his last moments. But Logan's death is "pathetic"? No, sir. No. His end is perfection as he gets one last chance to let out his rage that has been accumulating over the centuries and use it to save lives he cares about. Lives that are the future of his kind.



The former is from the comics and the latter is simply not an accurate summation of the film. It's not like the film says "Oh hey, Logan's dead now, enjoy a trilogy of movies about this kid." Not at all. This is hyperbolic.



Again, I believe this is straight out of the comics.

This movie takes place 5 years after DOFP from what I understand.

And most of the X-Men movies tend to have bittersweet endings.
 
This movie takes place 5 years after DOFP from what I understand.

And most of the X-Men movies tend to have bittersweet endings.

Just looked at a timeline and yes, it appears that Logan occurs 6 years after the epilogue to DOFP.
 
:lol

It's just the whole "serving two masters" slippery slope that plagued the TDK trilogy as well. Once you go full "Heat" or "Silence of the Lambs" and then make an abrupt left into "flying on rooftops" territory it can be a bit jarring unless it's the best damn flying on rooftops scene ever. :lol On the flip side Unbreakable and Split went full Hitchcockian thriller without backtracking into any jarringly cliche superhero tropes. Imagine if halfway through Split Anya Taylor-Joy jumped up, wrapped her legs around McAvoy's neck and threw him to the ground. It'd be kind of a "really, we're going there?" moment.

The MCU has had movies that served two masters but they tend to pic genres that make for a more traditional overlap, like 70's political thriller meets 70's James Bond (The Winter Soldier.) Unforgiven meets Star Trek just takes a little more getting used to. ;)

Because that's kind of what Logan did. 90 minutes of Unforgiven and then all of a sudden it's Captain Kirk vs. Evil Kirk, and then back to Unforgiven. But again, it might play better going forward knowing to anticipate it.

Anyway, mulling over the ending more has given me a new way of looking at it. Logan makes it clear that his entire life, spanning more than a century, has been nothing but him outliving everyone he cares about. Whether they die violently (which is often the case) or by natural causes they still die while he has to live. Finally he gets to rest which is actually the only happy ending he ever *could* have. If he had walked off into the sunset with Laura then it'd still just be only a matter of time before he had to bury her too. Unless she buried him.

I *really* appreciate the ambiguity of "so that's what it feels like." What what feels like? Love? Death? Victory? Peace? Take your pick, the movie doesn't clarify so we get to decide. Whatever "it" is was something that had eluded him his entire life. He got to check out knowing that all the present danger had been defeated and that "someone he cared about" was still living and breathing when it was all said and done. Whether she lived five minutes or five decades after that moment didn't matter. The cycle was broken and finally someone outlasted Logan's watch.

The farmhouse scene was tragic for the family but Charles' gift to Laura was an opportunity to laugh. And sit at the table as a family, with neighbors, getting just a sample of how sweet "normal" life can be. Charles said it was the best night he'd had in years which means it was probably Laura's best night EVER. And that was a precedent she got to take with her after Logan's death. And if Charles' gift was laughter then Logan's gift was prompting her to return to speaking verbally and more importantly getting to experience having a father. She literally said as much at the very end.

And if Xavier's greatest gift to Logan (that Charles angrily threw in his face early in the film) was "giving him a family" then that means in the last few moments of his life Logan stopped being "Wolverine" and took on the mantle of "Professor X," giving the gift of family to one last student.

Definitely appreciate your points, especially the first paragraph. It's great reading the discussion the movie has generated, pro and con.
 
X24 in costume would've been lame as ****, and it would've totally messed with the thematic perfection that is Charles confusedly thinking Logan betrayed him if he showed up, snarling, in a bright yellow gimp suit.
 
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