Media Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain & Ground Zeroes

[ronri]

Its a huge story of misinterpretation... maybe Ocelot didn't fully understand Big Boss's plan, the attempt to understand someone's intetions is a big part of MGS4, just like MGS2 that game was involved with things beyond the game's story and context

Yup, it's exactly why I love Ocelot as a character. For all the good he did, he still had a very twisted zero-sum mentality about the world (seriously, for him it was either absolute control vs absolute chaos). Let's not forget that for all his seeming "heroism" (something i get tired of hearing even as an Ocelot fan), this is still the very same sadistic b@st@rd who absolutely enjoyed torture (something he learned from Volgin of all people, not to mention at the time when Volgin was torturing Big Boss, good lord). Whether or not you think Ocelot's end plan justified his means (again, he still failed to achieve one part of his plan, the other half being that he at least freed Big Boss), is entirely up to the person. I for one think he's a very cool and twisted character, but one that greatly contributed in actually doing a lot of good in the long run.

Again, I LOVE the ideas Kojima was going for with Ocelot in MGS4, but I just hated how it was all communicated very poorly with all the random stuff being crammed into its story. So yeah, conceptually I liked MGS4 (heck I really want HT figures of Old Snake and Liquid Ocelot), but overall it was clunky and messy and eugh.

@ronri:
I'm really not convinced about the "achieving anarchy" part as one of his main goals; because it follows that if Ocelot were to free Big Boss by taking the AI systems offline, then the economies of the world would destabilize as a result (and hence, it would become the "Wild West"). I think Ocelot's end quote was more of a realization, and grandiose speech that The Patriots had finally been defeated and the world was now free from their grasp.

That's not to say that Big Boss may not have liked the idea of ruling over another Outer Heaven. But, Outer Heaven itself, was a just a means to an end to defeating The Patriots, and since Ocelot succeeded in his mission, I guess Big Boss just decided to call it quits in his life and everything else.

And that's perfectly fine! I don't know, it's just from a lot of material I've gathered there's just a lot of evidence that showed that Ocelot possessed such a mindset. Mind you, it's not like I'm saying that Ocelot was a literal anarchist, I'd say it's more appropriate to say it's a mentality he was forced to adopt by living under the Patriots rule for so long. If anything, this goal of "anarchy" felt more like a last resort than anything else, and one he's perfectly happy about to actually happen since it fits in Big Boss's old ideal somehow. I don't necessarily think he's evil-incarnate nor do I think he's scum because of it, but it did make for a dangerous mentality that even I'm sure that Big Boss wouldn't have wanted it for himself or anyone else in the end. It's why Naomi and Sunny's contribution was hyped up so much (even by Big Boss at the end), beyond Ocelot's work, Sunny's modifications was what saved society from being the complete wasteland that Ocelot had projected. And it's not like Snake was the only way for Ocelot to achieve his plan. If Snake had died along the way, Ocelot would've still launched the nuke, and heck without Sunny's FOXALIVE, it would've actually achieved his projected Outer Heaven unlike what happened at the end of MGS4 where FOXALIVE prevented just that .

 

[Henry Morgan*]

Yup, it's exactly why I love Ocelot as a character. For all the good he did, he still had a very twisted zero-sum mentality about the world (seriously, for him it was either absolute control vs absolute chaos). Let's not forget that for all his seeming "heroism" (something i get tired of hearing even as an Ocelot fan), this is still the very same sadistic b@st@rd who absolutely enjoyed torture (something he learned from Volgin of all people, not to mention at the time when Volgin was torturing Big Boss, good lord). Whether or not you think Ocelot's end plan justified his means (again, he still failed to achieve one part of his plan, the other half being that he at least freed Big Boss), is entirely up to the person. I for one think he's a very cool and twisted character, but one that greatly contributed in actually doing a lot of good in the long run.

Again, I LOVE the ideas Kojima was going for with Ocelot in MGS4, but I just hated how it was all communicated very poorly with all the random stuff being crammed into its story. So yeah, conceptually I liked MGS4 (heck I really want HT figures of Old Snake and Liquid Ocelot), but overall it was clunky and messy and eugh.

There are people that played it without having any idea of the previous games I wonder how that feels like, it must be the weirdest thing. Same here.. I love the concept of an Old Snake, I want Old Snake and Liquid Ocelot figures too

I think MGS4 ending was good for everyone, it was kind of depressing but it was a happy ending at the same time. What I don't like is the new foxdie thing. Its something that is out of the players control again Snake walks around kiling Eva, Big Boss.. and he doesn't even realise I'm glad all that **** is over

 

[pturtle]

Any 1/6 Solid Snake figure would sellout day 1. I like what you said before Henry, they should make Old Snake, also give us a young Snake sculpt with it. Hopefully Hot Toys is working on that now.

 

[Henry Morgan*]

Thats what I want!

Young Snake facecamo with Old Snake, that would sell more than the Marvel **** also Meryl and MGS4 Raiden

 

[pturtle]

Ocelot needs to be made!!!! He gets no love when it comes to figures.

 

[ronri]

I do have to apologize for derailing the topic of this thread so much! Ocelot happens to be my favorite MGS character, and I just couldn't help but contribute my own thoughts on him and some facts on why he assumed the role of "Liquid" in MGS4. Anyway I hope you guys didn't mind the discussion even if it was somewhat off-topic.

 

[Solidus]

Off topic is the reason why this thread has surpassed 1000 pages . Nothing interesting usually happens in here most of the time..

 

[pturtle]

I do have to apologize for derailing the topic of this thread so much! Ocelot happens to be my favorite MGS character, and I just couldn't help but contribute my own thoughts on him and some facts on why he assumed the role of "Liquid" in MGS4. Anyway I hope you guys didn't mind the discussion even if it was somewhat off-topic.

That was probably the most interesting debate on here in quite some time, we should be thanking you

 

[Henry Morgan*]

What pturtle said

I do have to apologize for derailing the topic of this thread so much! Ocelot happens to be my favorite MGS character, and I just couldn't help but contribute my own thoughts on him and some facts on why he assumed the role of "Liquid" in MGS4. Anyway I hope you guys didn't mind the discussion even if it was somewhat off-topic.

Oh this thread was seriously derailed before its ok to talk the awesomeness of Ocelot

 

[Snake Plissken]

Definitely the most cringe worthy scene in the game

 

[Solidus]

My dad liked that scene so much, he'd pop out of the corner all of a sudden and do the Ocelot guns, or the "you're pretty good" thing for no reason. That went on for three weeks back in 2008 >__>. Pissed the heck out of my mom.

 

[Henry Morgan*]

you have the coolest dad ever


I loved that scene

 

[ronri]

Haha! I'm not even gonna lie, it was specifically at this moment when I started to doubt if he was actually Liquid Snake at all. Only Ocelot would be cool yet derpy enough to pull something like that (not to mention the dual-wielding gun-gesturing felt too ridiculously "cowboy" for someone as calm and composed like Liquid).

Definitely the most cringe worthy scene in the game

Is it wrong for me to say that I actually enjoyed that scene, haha!

 

[Henry Morgan*]

Yeah shooting from the hip like that, that is Ocelot

 

[Solidus]

you have the coolest dad ever


I loved that scene

Oh no, the memories .

 

[pturtle]

That was one of my favorite scenes in the game

 

[Jackhepburn]

Just S Ranked the Intel Operative Rescue and Classified Intel Acquistition today.

 

[Doctor Who]

 

[pturtle]

Same woman reviewer from the IGN video.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2014/0...zeroes-ending?abthid=5330e43a3f35bb5167000057

by Lucy O'Brien MARCH 24, 2014
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Spoilers

I really like Ground Zeroes. Its streamlined stealth mechanics, its variety of infiltration options and its unforgiving post-mission reports continue to compel me to play it again weeks later. I think it’s great. But in my review of the game, I criticised its ending for being ‘unearned;’ a word that felt right at the time, but perhaps didn’t explain my position adequately to those who have subsequently asked me what writer Hideo Kojima might have done differently to ‘earn’ an ending where a girl gets a bomb shoved up either her A: ****** or B: ****.

This question tends to follow the accusation that I am against dark or boundary-pushing material in video games, and that my critique is tied up in the same tedious media hysteria that we see directed towards the medium on morning television and talkback radio. This is absolutely not true. Nor is any accusation that I think Kojima is a poor storyteller in general; I’m a long-time fan of the bizzaro Metal Gear meta-narrative and the brilliant, tortured, and occasionally roller-skating characters found within it.

“
The bottom line is, Kojima hasn’t become David Fincher overnight.

‘Unearned’ is an economical way of saying that I felt that Ground Zeroes’ ending was exploitative and cheap considering the context within which it was presented.While the game’s tone is certainly grimier than previous instalments, it is still, at heart, a Metal Gear story. This is a world where central baddie Skull Face looks as if he's been dipped in hot wax and talks like a Bond villain, where gaudy dialogue like “they PLAYED US like a DAMN FIDDLE!” exists and one console-specific mission challenges Raiden to take down body snatchers using his super-awesome-wow cyborg ninja abilities.

The bottom line is, Kojima hasn’t become David Fincher overnight, and Ground Zeroes still has a whole bunch of goofy stuff in it to remind you that you’re playing a Metal Gear Solid game. The game’s ending, a nasty little punctuation mark on a series of acts of sexual violence against the game’s only female character, felt at odds with that.It's a discordance made worse by clumsy, almost gleeful handling of the material. In one instance, rape is used as a reward in a side objective: those who are prepared to trawl through the map and collect all the hidden audio tapes will find one where they can listen to Paz being sexually assaulted before she is forced to copulate with the underage Chico. “It's like fruit,” Skull Face muses in a bad guy growl. "Does she look sweet, or sour? A man has to know these things. Time for a taste test!” Some reward. The bomb scene itself is pure horror. The camera lingers deliciously on Paz’s squelching intestines; her rescuers shoving their hands into her stomach as she screams in un-anaesthetised pain. When she sacrifices herself at the end, we are not left mourning her – there was not enough character development for that – rather we are left in dumb shock at the information she imparted with her final words. What’s the deal? What’s the point of this character’s suffering? Kojima has spoken of “maturing” the medium towards that ever elusive acceptance as ‘art’ by tackling taboo themes, but what he is essentially doing here is utilising an age-old narrative trick to give his male protagonist a purpose. There is no interest in the broader complexities of Paz herself; she is nothing but a catalyst for the hero’s quest in Ground Zeroes’ successor, The Phantom Pain. Why? Because rape as a plot device is quick and easy as hell to implement and further, it lends a sense of gravitas to a story; a sense that the writer has crossed some dangerous line and we ought to congratulate him or her for that. Despite Kojima’s public desires to evolve the medium, I do wonder if the creative decisions he made when writing Ground Zeroes were born partly out of the criticisms directed at the water-logged narrative in Metal Gear Solid 4. Ground Zeroes feels very purposefully that game’s opposite; smooth, slick, lean and ridiculously replayable; it is not hard to imagine that these brutal, uncomfortably unforgettable moments were somewhat reactionary. Yet when I listened to that audio tape for the first time? Bring me Sunny and her eggs any day.
Rather than interpreting my critique as the work of a feminazi (the insult du jour) or as an attempt to push some pro-censorship hysterical agenda, please keep in mind that I do not believe sexual violence should be excluded as a literary device, nor do I think that video games are the wrong platform to address it. I want boundaries pushed, and I want video games to move us and challenge us in ways that they currently do not. I do believe, however, that if you’re going to go there, you’d best be able to handle it without crassness, and absolutely without the uneasy sense of glee on display here. And hey, if you disagree with me, if you really feel like your goofy, beloved Metal Gear is better off going down this road, that’s fine too. But if we are really going to take Kojima’s desires to mature the medium seriously, then we must be willing to criticise the medium seriously. Because only in criticism can the medium truly evolve, only in the challenge to refine itself and better itself can it truly flourish.

She seems to be taking some heat in the comments section, I think she’s doing most of this just for attention.

 

[FSLAR]

My dad liked that scene so much, he'd pop out of the corner all of a sudden and do the Ocelot guns, or the "you're pretty good" thing for no reason. That went on for three weeks back in 2008 >__>. Pissed the heck out of my mom.

If PAK or any other company makes an Ocelot of some kind, they gotta have not just the hands, but a head sculpt, specifically for this. Oh my god I love this far too much more than I should if I ever see an Ocelot cosplayer, we're abusing the **** out of this