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and just in case anyone wondered, in florida, you don't have to be punched in the face or have your head bashed in the sidewalk to use deadly force. the other person doesn't have to lay a finger on you. the law reads if the person feels their life is in imminent danger, deadly force can be used. this is open to vast interpretation in the court room. as long as it can be proven to a jury or at least convince them there was no other choice, deadly force can be used. there are several other states that have stand your ground laws, they are just not called that. are entertainers like stevie wonder and madonna boycotting those states too?
 
and just in case anyone wondered, in florida, you don't have to be punched in the face or have your head bashed in the sidewalk to use deadly force. the other person doesn't have to lay a finger on you. the law reads if the person feels their life is in imminent danger, deadly force can be used. this is open to vast interpretation in the court room. as long as it can be proven to a jury or at least convince them there was no other choice, deadly force can be used. there are several other states that have stand your ground laws, they are just not called that. are entertainers like stevie wonder and madonna boycotting those states too?

That list of boycotters that was given out turned out to be bogus. Steve Wonder is for sure but I'm not sure about anyone else. With the makeup of Florida now, I doubt anyone would notice if they would boycott anyway.
 
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I will never ever understand the outrage and the boycotts, the protests and the riots when there are hundreds of teens dying because of gang related violence.
It sucks that Trayvon died but this was just a stupid accident.(Very stupid)

How come no one is rioting about the violence in Chicago? I know it sounds like a cop out but it is a fact.
I remember reading somewhere that there are a lot more gang related shootings between gangs than shootings like this one.

I just don't understand people in other states besides Florida losing their ****
 
and just in case anyone wondered, in florida, you don't have to be punched in the face or have your head bashed in the sidewalk to use deadly force. the other person doesn't have to lay a finger on you. the law reads if the person feels their life is in imminent danger, deadly force can be used. this is open to vast interpretation in the court room. as long as it can be proven to a jury or at least convince them there was no other choice, deadly force can be used. there are several other states that have stand your ground laws, they are just not called that. are entertainers like stevie wonder and madonna boycotting those states too?

Well it was up to the jury whether or not those feelings were justified. This time it went his way, but I have my own private doubts and many more (too many) believe he's a murderer no matter what anyone says. Being punched in the face hurts, being punched on the ground hitting the back of your head on concrete at the same time is worse, but does that mean you're about to die? It's really too bad he couldn't ball himself up until the police got there (only seconds away as it turned out) because now with Trayvon dead, there will always be someone out there who wants a piece of him. If a 158 lb teenager can whoop on him to the point he thinks he's about to die in the space of a minute, just imagine what an average man could do.

The only scenario that I'd really see the excuse for lethal force in this case was if Trayvon went for the gun. But with all the punches he was throwing (25 in under 2 minutes), the rain, the poorly lit area, how exactly did Zimmerman say he knew the boy was going for the gun? He saw him go for it and heard him say "you're going to die tonight". Again it's not impossible but given all the other limiting factors involved, I really wish we could have gotten an outside eyewitness to the whole thing.

Zimmerman may very well have stumbled across a thug in the making with Trayvon, but I can't help but think if he had better critical thinking skills none of this had to happen. An armed 29 year-old vs. skittle carrying (possibly drank/lean addled) 17 year old. It will never look good for him. Ever. The law might have exonerated him, but it can't get the community to forgive him. I wish it could have been different for all involved.

This boycotting state thing is ridiculous and couldn't be more ineffective. If these celebrities and famous people really wanted to make a difference, they'd hunker down and lend their support to the people already involved.
 
Being punched in the face hurts, being punched on the ground hitting the back of your head on concrete at the same time is worse, but does that mean you're about to die? It's really too bad he couldn't ball himself up until the police got there (only seconds away as it turned out) because now with Trayvon dead, there will always be someone out there who wants a piece of him. If a 158 lb teenager can whoop on him to the point he thinks he's about to die in the space of a minute, just imagine what an average man could do.

I don't think you have a real grasp on how easily one person can kill another, or how even a small amount of head trama can kill, age and weight have virtually nothing to do with it. If you think a 158lbs teen can't cause serious damage you don't have a firm grasp on the reality of a street fight either.

Just sayin' :wave
 
I don't think you have a real grasp on how easily one person can kill another, or how even a small amount of head trama can kill, age and weight have virtually nothing to do with it. If you think a 158lbs teen can't cause serious damage you don't have a firm grasp on the reality of a street fight either.

Just sayin' :wave

But the fact remains, in this case Trayvon did not cause serious damage. Granted some people are more fragile than others, but remember this is a guy who refused medical treatment on the scene. Even he knew he didn't sustain serious damage... it was the threat of Trayvon reaching for the gun that is really the best defense for it imo.

You might have a right by law to shoot a man if he punches you, but it doesn't exactly exonerate you on a human level. It's a bad precedent too. If you punch me, should I really have the right to shoot you dead? All I gotta say is "I wuz afrayd Keeng Dahrgknuzz wuz gunnu killz meh!" :horror:horror:horror

Was this about a full grown adult at 200 lbs who after only a minute of sustaining minor physical wounds thought he was going to die? It only makes sense if Trayvon was going for the gun.
 
To be blunt, the only reason George Zimmerman has any reason to fear for his life now is because the President has no concept of how to keep his goddamned mouth shut.

As for minor injuries, there was a case here a couple years back where a man beat an off-duty firefighter into a coma in a span of minutes. How long will it take the police to get there? How long will it take to do damage you won't walk away from?

Better yet, how much of a beating are you required to take to in order to spare the life of the person beating you?
 
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But the fact remains, in this case Trayvon did not cause serious damage. Granted some people are more fragile than others, but remember this is a guy who refused medical treatment on the scene. Even he knew he didn't sustain serious damage... it was the threat of Trayvon reaching for the gun that is really the best defense for it imo.

You might have a right by law to shoot a man if he punches you, but it doesn't exactly exonerate you on a human level. It's a bad precedent too. If you punch me, should I really have the right to shoot you dead? All I gotta say is "I wuz afrayd Keeng Dahrgknuzz wuz gunnu killz meh!" :horror:horror:horror

Was this about a full grown adult at 200 lbs who after only a minute of sustaining minor physical wounds thought he was going to die? It only makes sense if Trayvon was going for the gun.

it doesn't matter if there was ANY damage, that's the law. and you should educate yourself on the facts. the gun wasn't drawn until trayvon was on top of zimmerman, punching him in the face, covering his mouth and nose to keep him from breathing, and finally smashing his head on the sidewalk. i'm sure if zimmerman didn't resist, it would have been worse. what if it was a 65 year old man on crime watch? he probably would have been a lot worse. facts are, trayvon initiated the physical confrontation, he assaulted zimmerman, and zimmerman according to the law, had the right to use deadly force.

anyone wondering if zimmerman was morally right can put themselves in zimmerman's place and ask yourself would you have let trayvon assault you like that? would you think he could kill you doing what he did? if you answered no and yes respectively, you had a right to use deadly force.

maybe if that happens to you one day, you could discuss with your assaulter the moral implications if you defend yourself with a gun. better get your point across quickly and hope you convince him to stop before your brains exit your skull though.
 
To be blunt, the only reason George Zimmerman has any reason to fear for his life now is because the President has no concept of how to keep his goddamned mouth shut.

As for minor injuries, there was a case here a couple years back where a man beat an off-duty firefighter into a coma in a span of minutes. How long will it take the police to get there? How long will it take to do damage you won't walk away from?

Better yet, how much of a beating are you required to take to in order to spare the life of the person beating you?

i have to agree. obama had a great opportunity to diffuse the situation and he just threw more fuel on the fire. a BAD move. i expected words from him to bring people together, not push them farther apart. he should have told the people that it was NOT race related and the jury has spoken...period. if he had a son, he probably would have looked like trayvon, and trayvon could have been him? awful!!!

that's the way 'justice' works in this country and that's why the statue of lady justice with the scales is blindfolded. don't like the judicial system in america? move to another country.
 
and just to add, did anyone see the interview with the only black juror? she claims she wanted murder 2 but the other jurors pushed her into changing her mind. that's the way jury deliberations work lady!!!! the ones who think one way try to convince the others who think the other way with FACTS and discussing the way the LAW reads. yet this lady is trying to look like a victim of bullying. i guess appealing to intellect was lost on her. has this whole world gone insane? integrity is dead.
 
To be blunt, the only reason George Zimmerman has any reason to fear for his life now is because the President has no concept of how to keep his goddamned mouth shut.

Obama didn't need to say anything. We all know race is always itching to be an issue for some folks. What we're seeing now is a good amount of national hysteria on the subject. On one side of their mouths, the prosecutors say this was not about race then turn around and mention Emmett Till in the same sentence as Trayvon. Like clockwork, many black leaders are jumping on the bandwagon race issue. However, check out Charles Barkley on the subject:

[ame]https://youtu.be/iEbpmoWk1gk[/ame]

I gotta say I'm impressed overall.

Then he goes and clarifies that Martin was racially profiled, which I can't agree with but overall he had some good things to say.

Trayvon was probably only just beginning to live the street life. He had multiple school suspensions and was serving one when he was killed. It could be by the nature of having the parents split up he was able to run a little wild. Then there's the case of finding items in his backpack that matched the description of missing items from a nearby burglary:

https://patdollard.com/2013/06/tray...burglaries-covered-up-by-media-school-police/

Is it completely inconcievable that he might have telegraphed body language that went beyond ethnicity? Was he not on the road of juvenile delinquency?

As for minor injuries, there was a case here a couple years back where a man beat an off-duty firefighter into a coma in a span of minutes.

How long will it take the police to get there? How long will it take to do damage you won't walk away from?

Better yet, how much of a beating are you required to take to in order to spare the life of the person beating you?

Good questions, no easy answer. When an adult is dealing with a teenager they outweigh by some 42 pounds and the kid has no weapon and the adult pulls out a gun and kills them, its a hard sell no matter how you cut it. That's when you hope beyond hope someone else was watching. Before we even get to "race" though, deep down there's also a sense that an adult needs to do their best to preserve the life of a minor even if it means taking a few shots on the jaw. Is it fair? Not in every single instance, but it's definitely there. Clearly though, the 5'11 Trayvon was not his smaller teenage self we were given pictures of at the beginning.

DarkMatter said:
it doesn't matter if there was ANY damage, that's the law. and you should educate yourself on the facts. the gun wasn't drawn until trayvon was on top of zimmerman

That goes both ways. Just because there were no obvious wounds on Trayvon doesn't mean Zimmerman didn't try to be tough and initiate the encounter. Remember Trayvon ran away from Zimmerman while he was on the line with 911. Trayvon presumably didn't fight George until George followed him within some 50 yards of where he and his younger brother were staying. It could just mean he was a better hand to hand combatant but clearly not in Zimmerman's league when it came to firepower and he paid the ultimate price for getting tangled with him.

Now, let's talk about positioning. How did Trayvon see the gun with George laying on his back? At some point after all those punches and the attempt to smother him, George must have managed to turn himself around so that Trayvon could see it... but didn't George say Trayvon's knees were by his elbows? You really can't pin people down too well unless you're sitting above the waist. George then reaches around Trayvon's left leg, under his own shirt and jacket, quickdraws and shoots him dead in the chest. It really begs for a demonstration but the prosecution didn't seem to think it was that important to show. I wonder what the jury thought about that particular scenario. I wonder if they even realized how strange that account was on its own.

The only real visual aid we have here is from George's account to police:

attachment.php


Look at where Zimmerman is indicating he had the gun, on the backside of his right hip and inside the waistband. Was his shirt and jacket hiked up so as to make it obvious he had a gun? To me it would make much more sense if Trayvon found out about the gun as his leg bumped up against it, but Zimmerman would still have to get around the kid's leg and under his own shirt/jacket to get the gun.
 
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I don't think you have a real grasp on how easily one person can kill another, or how even a small amount of head trama can kill, age and weight have virtually nothing to do with it. If you think a 158lbs teen can't cause serious damage you don't have a firm grasp on the reality of a street fight either.

Just sayin' :wave
:exactly::lecture:goodpost:
Just Googled, "man killed with one punch". I suggest those scoffing about Zimmerman not being able to take a punch read up. Lots of material, get busy.
https://www.google.com/webhp?source=search_app#output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=man+killed+with+one+punch&oq=man+killed+with+one+&gs_l=hp.1.0.0j0i22i30l3.1415.6861.0.10123.20.20.0.0.0.0.186.2210.7j13.20.0.ernk_timecombined...0.0..1.1.20.psy-ab.WsjE1_CwY5w&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.49784469%2Cd.dmg%2Cpv.xjs.s.en_US.MpiVkF51mpA.O&fp=381611a74afb0444&biw=1241&bih=619
 
But the fact remains, in this case Trayvon did not cause serious damage. Granted some people are more fragile than others, but remember this is a guy who refused medical treatment on the scene. Even he knew he didn't sustain serious damage... it was the threat of Trayvon reaching for the gun that is really the best defense for it imo.
makes sense if Trayvon was going for the gun.
There have been cases of accident victims refusing medical treatment at the scene of an accident only to die later of undiagnosed injuries.
 
:exactly::lecture:goodpost:
Just Googled, "man killed with one punch".

Bottom line is that no one has a right to lay a finger on you. My favorite example is rape. Does a woman not have the right to use deadly force against a rapist who does not intend to kill her?

There have been cases of accident victims refusing medical treatment at the scene of an accident only to die later of undiagnosed injuries.

A blow to the head could leave you with a sub-dural hematoma.
That could take hours, and it's not something that screams "you need immediate medical attention or you will die."
 
My dad was a scrapper long before he became a Marine, and didn't stop until after he was home from Vietnam. Something happened one night that convinced him that it was not worth the risk of hurting someone permanently. He vowed to do anything he could to avoid a fight from that point on.

Anyone who thinks that taking a swing at another person is not opening the door for either their own death, or that of their target, is a damned fool. Anyone asking for a legally protected right to commit assault without fear for their life is at heart a jackbooted thug. Anyone looking to grant that right is someone with a need for such thugs and represents a threat of the highest order to all civilized peoples.
 
To be blunt, the only reason George Zimmerman has any reason to fear for his life now is because the President has no concept of how to keep his goddamned mouth shut.

As for minor injuries, there was a case here a couple years back where a man beat an off-duty firefighter into a coma in a span of minutes. How long will it take the police to get there? How long will it take to do damage you won't walk away from?

Better yet, how much of a beating are you required to take to in order to spare the life of the person beating you?

i have to agree. obama had a great opportunity to diffuse the situation and he just threw more fuel on the fire. a BAD move. i expected words from him to bring people together, not push them farther apart. he should have told the people that it was NOT race related and the jury has spoken...period. if he had a son, he probably would have looked like trayvon, and trayvon could have been him? awful!!!

that's the way 'justice' works in this country and that's why the statue of lady justice with the scales is blindfolded. don't like the judicial system in america? move to another country.


It almost felt like he was trying to distract people from something else. Like he was using this to distract everyone.

I know it sounds like a conspiracy, but really, Why did he have to say what he said?
Why did the media take this case and made it all about race? Seriously with all the crap going on everyone just focused on this stupid self defense case in Florida? really? :cuckoo:

I don't believe he was being sincere. I don't think he really cared about the case or Trayvon.
 
I've been involved in martial arts for almost thirty years. I own my own school and teach full time for a living.
The idea you can think clearly under those conditions is completely ludicrous. Unless you are a regularly training in high intensity martial arts you will likely be in the grip of an adrenaline rush and not capable of assessing how much trouble you are in. Furthermore, I don't know if anyone here has ever had their nose broken. Mine has been broken 7 times (only once since I started training) and the first thing you notice is that you can't see.
The idea of someone who has just been punched in the face needs to assess the vital statistics of his attacker before responding is beyond stupid. I have heard many people say that Zimmerman should have done this or done that. I ask these people how many times have you experienced violence? How many times have you had someone pounding the hell out of you on a dark rainy night by someone you suspect is potentially dangerous. I also ask them that if their son/husband/brother/father were on the ground being pummeled how much of such punishment are they supposed to take before responding?
 
:exactly::lecture:goodpost:
Just Googled, "man killed with one punch". I suggest those scoffing about Zimmerman not being able to take a punch read up. Lots of material, get busy.

It has happened yes, but it didn't happen here objectively speaking. We are completely basing his justification on whether he percieved a credible threat of death or severe injury. It's possible, but it's not the only scenario that doesn't include race hatred. Read on.

There have been cases of accident victims refusing medical treatment at the scene of an accident only to die later of undiagnosed injuries.

True, but it's not what happened here. His wounds were minor.

There's alot of energy behind explaining his actions in terms of fear, what he thought could have happened. I don't think that was the main operant at work here.

We've looked at Trayvon's background so it's only fair we mention a little bit of Zimmerman's. Alleged domestive abuse, restraining order, anger management classes, resisting arrest with violence, described as "overly aggressive" when he worked as a security guard "like Jekyll and Hyde". He's a guy who really wants to learn how to fight, but snaps too easily. But thankfully all those personality traits were completely inactive by the time he met up with Trayvon right?

Ok.

To me, this indicates that this event wasn't motivated by racism or fear of imminent death but by anger. Whenever you get hit in the face most guys want to hit back harder, happens all the time (and they usually don't die after one hit). Then you have the guys out there who just take it to another level altogether. They tend to have a short fuse to begin with. You know the kind, he's a spaz when he gets angry and it's unlikely he's going to be able to think clearly about the situation once he gets into it.

I find George being highly anger prone a little more believable for a guy going out on his own on a dark rainy night following some suspicious kid all the way home from a convenience store ("they always get away!") who could have been armed for all he knew. What he might not have planned on is finding a younger man with a hotter temper who hits harder than he does. He gets a surprise punch in the face, goes down, kid gets on top and knocks him around a bit while stunned (maybe he throws some punches but the kid dodges) but as he comes back to his senses he goes for the gun because for a split second he's like "**** you kid" and does it. Trayvon didn't have to have him pinned on the ground to be above him, he could have been backing off him too.

But we'll never know.

Thanks to there being no one around who had a clear view on all the action, we aren't in a position to really prove what happened that night outside of Trayvon being followed, George getting ruffed up and Trayvon getting shot. There's alot of blanks to start and not a boatload of evidence.

Then we get to George's account which had me scratching my head in a few places. Then you get to the trial and I gotta tell you, the Defense just did an amazing job. The Prosecution on the other hand looked like they just assumed it was a done deal. In the end they were left chasing the only well defined theory of what happened that night (the defense's version) and embarrassingly enough for them, backed down from their initial assertion that Zimmerman was on top.

Overall though, this guy doesn't come off to me as easily cowed or fearful. On the contrary he's quite fearless. Unfortunately, it's coupled with thoughtless too. He's doesn't come across as a guy who's going to think about the worst case scenario primarily because he has a documented history of acting on anger regardless of the obvious and direct consequences.

On the positive side it also enables him to do courageous things like this: https://www.policeone.com/vehicle-incidents/articles/6335838-Zimmerman-saves-4-from-car-accident/

I don't think it's a stretch to say that this man always wanted to be a hero. Particularly tragic for him is the same fearless aspect that eats danger for breakfast (and lots of pancakes too no doubt) fueled the wrong instinct that day in February.

The law can't resolve every single aspect of this case nor do I expect it to. If anything I want to try to give people who might not feel 100% right about Zimmerman's story a version that doesn't include the need to bring up race.
 
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