1/6 Hot Toys 1/6 Captain Marvel

[SilverStar17]

That's no more fair than the "its not cheating if everyone's doing it" fallacy. Literally its saying that if racism exists, we might as well all embrace it.
What's fair would be to literally ignore race/sex/ect. altogether and have a system based on merit where everyone is praised and criticized on completely equal grounds without a single regard to external characteristics.

We don't have such a system now and you clearly don't have a problem with it as long as white males rig the current system for their benefit.

Agreed. It's easy to say we should "ignore race" when the system is heavily tilted in our favor and we already have a huge step up. The fact the white majority now says that any small attempt to help those groups who have been historically oppressed is equally as racist is just laughable to me.

But then it usually comes from those who want to pretend racism doesn't exist anymore, or who think that if we just didn't talk about it so much the problem would go away. Lol

So being that meritocracies don’t exist today, I presume you would agree that there must be a vast conspiracy in the NBA to prevent 5’5” white guys from being able to play in the league?

Justice is about holding individuals accountable for their own individual actions. Holding an entire group accountable for sins of the past by virtue of nothing more than their skin color and using that as a cudgel to beat them over the head with as “punishment” for historical stains on our society that many of them had nothing to do with and condemn, and that we’ve come very far with as a society in attempting to overcome and correct (but is nowhere near perfect), is not “justice.” All it does is diminish the value of people as individuals, which is the biggest minority of them all.

You guys are also assuming ShadowX81’s skin color must be white, simply because he contests the premise to your argument.

I know you’re a good guy davejames, so I’m not personally attacking you at all. But I wholeheartedly disagree with the premise of your argument.

 

[playboy409]

So being that meritocracies don’t exist today, I presume you would agree that there must be a vast conspiracy in the NBA to prevent 5’5” white guys from being able to play in the league?

Justice is about holding individuals accountable for their own individual actions. Holding an entire group accountable for sins of the past by virtue of nothing more than their skin color and using that as a cudgel to beat them over the head with as “punishment” for historical stains on our society that many of them had nothing to do with and condemn, and that we’ve come very far with as a society in attempting to overcome and correct (but is nowhere near perfect), is not “justice.” All it does is diminish the value of people as individuals, which is the biggest minority of them all.

You guys are also assuming ShadowX81’s skin color must be white, simply because he contests the premise to your argument.

I know you’re a good guy davejames, so I’m not personally attacking you at all. But I wholeheartedly disagree with the premise of your argument.

Well said and agree 100%. I’m not white either but hates affirmative action or anything else gained through BS factors such as race or gender. You earn your merits through your actions, not because you were thrown a bone cause you’re white, black, asian, hispanic, female, male etc.

 

[davejames]

Saying that we're "punishing" the current generation or "beating them over the head"... simply by offering a bit of help to more oppressed groups seems like kind of an extreme overreaction to me. It's not about exacting vengeance or something. It's simply recognizing that there is a disparity and seeking to give everyone a more equal opportunity. And not just shrugging our shoulders at the problem and hoping everything will just magically work itself out someday.

 

[SilverStar17]

It's simply recognizing that there is a disparity and seeking to give everyone a more equal opportunity.

If you’ve ever taken a statistics course, statistical disparity does not invariably mean discrimination. As I mentioned, just because the NBA is predominantly made up of black players doesn’t prove that there’s a vast league wide conspiracy to discriminate against 5’5” white guys and keep them out of the league.

I concur that equal opportunity provides the most fair and equal way for everyone to succeed because it’s based on merit and engenders competition. However, when you control who gets those opportunities based on nothing more than their skin color in order to achieve a pre-selected outcome, that’s not equal opportunity; that’s equal outcome. And that requires you to have to be unequal to someone else, again, on no other basis than their skin color, gender, etc (which is the very essence of racism or sexism), and ignores the character and the merits of the individual, who is the biggest minority of them all.

 

[v-i-s-o-n]

I don’t expect white men to understand why we need diversity, but that being said, can we get back on track? The last couple pages have been about what’s going on behind the scenes instead of the actual figure. I get talking about the movie, but we’ve inappropriately moved beyond that.

 

[davejames]

There have been countless studies done over the years that show clear discrimination against minorities when it comes to hiring practices, etc. It's not just some statistical fluke.

 

[BeefEaster]

I almost can't tell if this is the thread for the HT CM figure or the CM movie or some weird political discussion.

 

[davejames]

I don’t expect white men to understand why we need diversity, but that being said, can we get back on track? The last couple pages have been about what’s going on behind the scenes instead of the actual figure. I get talking about the movie, but we’ve inappropriately moved beyond that.

Well we did squeeze in a brief discussion about the cat. Does that not count?

 

[Nortdort]

I almost can't tell if this is the thread for the HT CM figure or the CM movie or some weird political discussion.

I know the feeling. Everyday I log on and see tons of activity..... but then I have to skip 5 pages of this stuff to see someone saying "awesome figure, pre-ordered! Cant wait"

Any way those looking to argue about the merits of the movie/diversity/politics take it over to the movie thread? Please?
https://www.sideshowcollectors.com/forums/movies-and-tv-show-discussion/151219-captain-marvel-march-8-2019-a.html

 

[gmoney5000]

We don't have such a system now and you clearly don't have a problem with it as long as white males rig the current system for their benefit.

I think it's clear to me that Malgus is Brie Larson on our forum...why are you here wench?! Don't ruin our toy forum with your PC agenda!!!

 

[SilverStar17]

I don’t expect white men to understand why we need diversity

This is a non-argument because it doesn’t address the argument, let alone make a point. It simply attacks an individual based on extrinsic attributes and suggests that since one doesn’t possess those same extrinsic attributes as someone else, their opinion on certain issues or matters are invalid. This approach doesn’t provide rational discourse on an issue, nor even opens the door for it. It actually shuts it down before it can take place. What if a black person shares the same opinion as the white man who is being dismissed because of his gender and skin color? Would the opinion then be taken seriously because of the gender and skin color of the person that is saying it, even though it’s the exact same argument?

There have been countless studies done over the years that show clear discrimination against minorities when it comes to hiring practices, etc. It's not just some statistical fluke.

Did any of these studies cite which specific institutions or entities where this practice is taking place, and provide irrefutable evidence? If so, I would gladly condemn any such entity and spend my time and money elsewhere, as I’m sure the majority of people would. There are unfortunately indeed still individual cases of racism that exist today so we are by no means a perfect society, and probably never will be. These are sins that unfortunately are going to plague the hearts of some people. But saying broad, platitudinous terms such as institutional racism, systemic oppression or the system is rigged, doesn’t really point anyone in any direction nor give them anything to go off of. Which institution? Which system? Which entity?

An analogy would be going to a doctor and simply telling the doctor, “I hurt.” When the doctor asks where, you simply keep repeating that you hurt and just don’t feel right. That doesn’t really give the doctor much to go off of to help you.

 

[gmoney5000]

If you’ve ever taken a statistics course, statistical disparity does not invariably mean discrimination. As I mentioned, just because the NBA is predominantly made up of black players doesn’t prove that there’s a vast league wide conspiracy to discriminate against 5’5” white guys and keep them out of the league.

I concur that equal opportunity provides the most fair and equal way for everyone to succeed because it’s based on merit and engenders competition. However, when you control who gets those opportunities based on nothing more than their skin color in order to achieve a pre-selected outcome, that’s not equal opportunity; that’s equal outcome. And that requires you to have to be unequal to someone else, again, on no other basis than their skin color, gender, etc (which is the very essence of racism or sexism), and ignores the character and the merits of the individual, who is the biggest minority of them all.

This is a non-argument because it doesn’t address the argument, let alone make a point. It simply attacks an individual based on extrinsic attributes and suggests that since one doesn’t possess those same extrinsic attributes as someone else, their opinion on certain issues or matters are invalid. This approach doesn’t provide rational discourse on an issue, nor even opens the door for it. It actually shuts it down before it can take place. What if a black person shares the same opinion as the white man who is being dismissed because of his gender and skin color? Would the opinion then be taken seriously because of the gender and skin color of the person that is saying it, even though it’s the exact same argument?

Did any of these studies cite which specific institutions or entities where this practice is taking place, and provide irrefutable evidence? If so, I would gladly condemn any such entity and spend my time and money elsewhere, as I’m sure the majority of people would. There are unfortunately indeed still individual cases of racism that exist today so we are by no means a perfect society, and probably never will be. These are sins that unfortunately are going to plague the hearts of some people. But saying broad, platitudinous terms such as institutional racism, systemic oppression or the system is rigged, doesn’t really point anyone in any direction nor give them anything to go off of. Which institution? Which system? Which entity?

An analogy would be going to a doctor and simply telling the doctor, “I hurt.” When the doctor asks where, you simply keep repeating that you hurt and just don’t feel right. That doesn’t really give the doctor much to go off of to help you.

SilverStar17 you speak a lot of truth and most importantly: LOGIC.

Glad to see level-headed folks on here, although I'm actually surprised you're from California, since most those folks are just looney lefties who loathe logic.

 

[gmoney5000]

Well we did squeeze in a brief discussion about the cat. Does that not count?

Haha...yeah but then politics also got thrown in there about orange tabbies not being represented enough!

 

[a-dev]

What if a black person shares the same opinion as the white man who is being dismissed because of his gender and skin color? Would the opinion then be taken seriously because of the gender and skin color of the person that is saying it, even though it’s the exact same argument?

I've noticed those instances just tend to get ignored completely. I dunno, maybe it is assumed the black man (or the woman) have some sort of stockholm syndrome or something.

 

[SilverStar17]

SilverStar17 you speak a lot of truth and most importantly LOGIC.

I'm actually surprised you're from California, since most those folks are just looney lefties who loathe logic.

Haha. Thanks, I appreciate it.

And you’d actually be surprised. Despite it being a liberal state, there’s actually a lot of people who disagree with the ideology, but they just don’t say anything.

I've noticed those instances just tend to get ignored completely. I dunno, maybe it is assumed the black man (or the woman) have some sort of stockholm syndrome or something.

Yeah, I’ve noticed that too. Or that black person is called repugnant names because they espouse an opinion that they apparently aren’t “supposed” to possess, and are supposed to be married to group think as opposed to individual thought.

 

[xipotec]

That's no more fair than the "its not cheating if everyone's doing it" fallacy. Literally its saying that if racism exists, we might as well all embrace it.
What's fair would be to literally ignore race/sex/ect. altogether and have a system based on merit where everyone is praised and criticized on completely equal grounds without a single regard to external characteristics.

True, if the initial playing field were actually level....and its not.

History show that , hell the modern news is showing that right now with the college admissions scam....

Its a fact that many in our society are starting with hundreds of years of oppression. Your family or gender does not just ignore that in the current climate because we suddenly feel we should.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[ShadowX81]

Yeah let's do nothing about existing racism. Anything done to stop EXISTING racism must be bad and must be avoided at all cost. Basically the disease complaining about the cure. The hypocrisy is this type of disease can be easily stopped by the people perpetrating it but they won't thus a cure needs to be applied from the outside. Of course they people who want things to continue the in the same discriminatory fashion won't want any change and will try to pretend to be reasonable while arguing against every possible solution.

You aren't talking about a cure. You are talking about literally introducing more racism in order to fight other racism. Both are equally wrong.

Silly example which I brought up before, if entry were totally based simply on merit Ivy Leagues would be completely saturated by East Asian students, even more than it already is. You can just imagine the outcry against that by the other groups as it were, including the white majority, which is why they make it harder score wise for Asians to gain entry. To allow for more equal representation.

If they are getting the best grades and are the most accomplished, then yes; Ivy Leagues should be filled entirely with Asian students. Nothing is stopping anyone else from working just as hard. Colleges are literally stating that the work put in by Asians is inherently worth less than that done of someone else based entirely on their race. How is that not extremely racist?

True, if the initial playing field were actually level....and its not.

History show that , hell the modern news is showing that right now with the college admissions scam....

Its a fact that many in our society are starting with hundreds of years of oppression. Your family or gender does not just ignore that in the current climate because we suddenly feel we should.

Nothing at all is stopping people today from working hard and overcoming that. Someone is always going to be ahead. There's always people that are smarter, more good looking, more extroverted, more rich, more charming, more well spoken. No one ever on exactly the same playing field. That's just life. What matters is that we all have access to the same opportunities and that our actions, not our race, defines who we are as a person.

To say otherwise is just adding to the problem. Prejudice is never going to be fixed by placing more emphasis on dividing people by our skin color. And no one alive today has been oppressed for hundreds of years. Minorities are not a collective, nor are you allowed to claim victimhood for things done to people that have nothing to do with you simply because you look like them. Just like you cannot blame me for things done by people that I have nothing to do with and never met.
Unless you want to make the case that a poor white redneck living in West Virginia has more power and privilege in society than the Obamas.

 

[BeefEaster]

I know the feeling. Everyday I log on and see tons of activity..... but then I have to skip 5 pages of this stuff to see someone saying "awesome figure, pre-ordered! Cant wait"

Any way those looking to argue about the merits of the movie/diversity/politics take it over to the movie thread? Please?
https://www.sideshowcollectors.com/forums/movies-and-tv-show-discussion/151219-captain-marvel-march-8-2019-a.html

I wish they'd follow this suggestion but it's like trying to pull a starving dog away from a piece of meat.

They probably wouldn't stop even if a mod got involved.

 

[SilverStar17]

I can’t help but notice though that it only becomes “political” and disliked when people start offering counterpoints, no matter how polite or cordial, to the myriad of posts that involve the denigration of white males. Those posts usually go uncomplained about, and actually, people often make jokes about the issue.

 

[davejames]

Did any of these studies cite which specific institutions or entities where this practice is taking place, and provide irrefutable evidence? If so, I would gladly condemn any such entity and spend my time and money elsewhere, as I’m sure the majority of people would. There are unfortunately indeed still individual cases of racism that exist today so we are by no means a perfect society, and probably never will be. These are sins that unfortunately are going to plague the hearts of some people. But saying broad, platitudinous terms such as institutional racism, systemic oppression or the system is rigged, doesn’t really point anyone in any direction nor give them anything to go off of. Which institution? Which system? Which entity?

An analogy would be going to a doctor and simply telling the doctor, “I hurt.” When the doctor asks where, you simply keep repeating that you hurt and just don’t feel right. That doesn’t really give the doctor much to go off of to help you.

Businesses and institutions get called out all the time for this stuff! It's not just some fleeting, ultra-rare occurrence. It's seen in the criminal justice system, in employment, in housing, in access to medicine, in denial of bank loans, in voting suppression...